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D&D 5E Assassinate

...the loss of a turn is never even remotely implied in the rules, only the loss of options.

The very definition of a turn given in the PHB indicates that taking a turn is when you either do something or choose not to do something. Anything.

If you can't do anything or make the choice not to do anything, then you did not take a turn.

When you're at 0 HP, the thing you're doing is making a Death Saving Throw.

When you elect to wait and see what happens, you're choosing not to do anything.

If you're under the effects of Hold Person, you're not choosing anything and you're not doing anything. You didn't lose your turn, but you lost your ability to take your turn.
 

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When you're at 0 HP, the thing you're doing is making a Death Saving Throw.

...

If you're under the effects of Hold Person, you're not choosing anything and you're not doing anything. You didn't lose your turn, but you lost your ability to take your turn.

You've lost the ability to willingly act on your turn. You still have to save versus any ongoing conditions on your turn. The presence or absence of immediate choices does not define the existence of the turn. Your potential choices are all still there, but they're restricted by the current circumstances.
 

You are correct. Reactions are usually regained at the start of turns. Isn't it logical to assume that if you don't get a reaction, you haven't taken a turn?

Surprise states: If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

You have a reaction just like anyone else you just can't take it until your first turn ends.

First round of combat:

20 - Fighter swings at wizard, wizard can cast shield as a reaction.

17 - Wizard goes, regains his reaction, and takes his turn.

If it was a surprise round the wizard wouldn't be able to cast shield, not because he doesn't have a reaction but because surprise says he can't take his reaction until the end of his turn on 17.
 

It's a logical guess, but it would be wrong. Much like it'd be wrong to assume that if you can't move or speak or attack, you must not have a turn.

I'm not trying to infer anyone is an idiot, or that the surprise rule isn't a little awkward given the baggage most of us are carrying from previous editions, but the loss of a turn is never even remotely implied in the rules, only the loss of options.

I believe it is implied and not remotely. You do in essence lose a turn as in can do nothing on that turn and cannot take reactions until the turn is over, I believe that very much does imply you lost a turn. IF you hadn't lost a turn, you would be able to take reactions from the start of the turn, right?

Turns out that those of us making that assumption were wrong according to Mearls.
 

you are surprised or not when the DM rules it, there is not enough rules on it's own, as such it is table by table

It says the DM determines who might be surprised. This is similar to the hiding rules in that the DM can determine that conditions don't allow hiding and therefore no one is surprised. If the DM thinks someone might be surprised that's when he calls for opposed Stealth and Perception checks. The procedure is fairly straight forward in its presentation.

Once Surprise has been determined, however, its effects and the duration of those effects are given as a predetermined constant, and any variation between tables on those would be due to house-ruling.
 

I believe it is implied and not remotely. You do in essence lose a turn as in can do nothing on that turn and cannot take reactions until the turn is over, I believe that very much does imply you lost a turn. IF you hadn't lost a turn, you would be able to take reactions from the start of the turn, right?

Turns out that those of us making that assumption were wrong according to Mearls.

I'm not going to argue over the definition or degrees of "implied." I already agreed that it would be a logical guess.

If that's what's burning you up, then yes, I can see how it's implied that you might lose a turn.
 

There is no need to be insulting. I was making a point separate from your point.

If you quote my post and say that two parts of my argument are unrelated, I can only assume it is an attempt to debunk my argument. Otherwise I'm really not sure what your point was.
 

I'm not going to argue over the definition or degrees of "implied." I already agreed that it would be a logical guess.

If that's what's burning you up, then yes, I can see how it's implied that you might lose a turn.

I wish they had handled surprise differently and stated how the condition works in a more clear fashion, especially given how it interacts with the key class ability of a popular archetype. Assassinate is pretty much all the assassin gets. This definitely weakens their best ability. Not just the critical hit, but the chance to get advantage without requiring another player on a second round with a high initiative.

The way I was playing it is if you surprised a target, you received the benefit of surprise and advantage on the first round. If your initiative was high, you got advantage on the second round before the target acted because he hadn't taken a turn during the surprise round. So the Assassin's key class ability was useful in the "surprise" round (now I know this doesn't exist) and the first round of combat. Now at best it works only on the first attack if you win initiative. That's a much weaker ability, not even worth taking in my book. Here we have a key class archetype with a cool name...Assassin...given a marginally useful class-defining power. I don't enjoy that type of design.
 

If he can't perform any actions or move, then he hasn't taken a turn.

If his initiative came up in the order and he CHOSE to do nothing, then he took his turn. But if he is HELD or otherwise INCAPACITATED and prevented from doing anything (especially from doing anything to defend himself) then he has not taken his turn, he has had his turn taken FROM him and I would rule that the Assassin has Advantage.

Think logically for a second. Why would it be harder for an Assassin to hit someone who is completely incapable of moving or defending himself in any way than it would be for him to hit someone who is walking down a hallway, oblivious?

If the target had already taken a turn in the combat (meaning, got to actually take some kind of action), then one can assume he is in a fighting stance, has his weapon out, maybe a shield up, that sort of thing. But until he DOES something in combat, he's in the same position (or a worse one) than he was during the surprise round.

Wait, if the target has HOLD PERSON cast on them (or is on some other way held or incapacitated), that means that he's paralyzed, and that EVERYBODY gets advantage against said target. There's no need to worry about whether or not the target has "taken" his turn or not.

Furthermore, anybody attacking the target from within 5' also gets an automatic critical, as per the Paralyzed condition. (Basic Rules 106.) So, the only thing that's not happening here is that the Assassin is not getting an automatic critical on attacks at range, if we determine that, while the target hasn't actually done anything yet, the target is no longer surprised.

To be fair, this could come up.

SCENARIO A:

Party sneaks up on opponents, and attacks. One of the other members of the party fires BEFORE the assassin, thereby alerting the opponents and starting combat, though the opponents are surprised. Initiative is rolled, and now actions take place in initiative order. The wizard gets to act before TARGET A and ASSASSIN, casting Hold Person on TARGET A. TARGET A's turn is next. He cannot act, both because he is surprised, but also because he is Paralyzed and Incapacitated. At the end of his turn, he fails his saving throw, so he is still Paralyzed and unable to take reactions (even though the fact that he was surprised no longer keeps him from taking reactions.) Now the ASSASSIN acts. He doesn't want to engage TARGET A in melee, so he fires an arrow. He has advantage, because TARGET A is Paralyzed. Is TARGET A still surprised, thereby giving him an automatic critical hit?

I'd agree that, by the rules, probably not, as TARGET A had his turn (we know this because he failed his saving throw at the end of it, as dictated by the hold person spell.) On the other hand, by the fiction, I'd say that doesn't really make sense and give the Assassin the automatic critical.

On the other hand, why is anybody doing anything before your Assassin has a chance to fire from hiding? That would have avoided this whole mess in the first place. That is the play when you have an assassin. The assassin shoots first.

SCENARIO B:

ASSASSIN opens combat with a ranged attack on TARGET A. Advantage, auto-crit. Before TARGET A's turn comes up, HOLD PERSON is cast, and he is Paralyzed. TARGET A fails his saving throw, and remains paralyzed until his next turn. ASSASSIN, having led initiative, gets to act again. He doesn't want to close to melee with TARGET A, because there are other opponents nearby, or he is more than 60 feet away. He fires. He has advantage (Paralyzed), but is TARGET A still surprised? Does he get the auto-crit. Good question! I think the "rules" support more that he is not surprised than that he is surprised — again, his turn has passed. On the other hand, I agree, is TARGET A any less vulnerable now than he was 6 seconds ago? Well, the one difference is that the other combatants, the ones who are discouraging ASSASSIN from just walking up and slitting TARGET A's throat, are definitely not surprised anymore (unless they've all been held?). As a result, that has changed the dynamic of the battle enough to make things a little harder for the Assassin. Might justify not giving the auto-crit to an attack from range, but, depending on the circumstances, I could rule either way, just in the interests of common sense.

My apologies if I am mis-reading your post and that is not what we're talking about. I'll admit that I find the construction of hypothetical scenarios to illustrate a problematic reading of a rule to be a little confusing. At the end of the day, at the table, you go with what makes the most sense.

While I disagree with Celtavian's assessment that the ruling supported by Mearls and Co makes the Assassin a worthless class, I certainly agree that, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, and the rules, in this case, as in many other cases, allow multiple interpretations. Use whichever one makes the most sense, and works the best at your table. The Assassins in my game contributed a ton, and we ran things more or less under the more conservative ruling.

I will say my biggest complaint about the Assassin. By giving them a class feature that is so dependent on something rather subjective and complex, it can make for some unpleasant arguments at the table. I don't necessarily think there's much to be done for this while sticking to the design goals of 5e — happy to see attempts, but rules on stealth (and consequently surprise) seem to be either somewhat nonsensical or extremely detailed. I'd just say, if you have a player who is really looking at maximizing damage at all costs, and that player will grind things to a halt when that big damage spike doesn't go his way, encourage that player not to play an Assassin.
 

Surprise states: If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

You have a reaction just like anyone else you just can't take it until your first turn ends.

First round of combat:

20 - Fighter swings at wizard, wizard can cast shield as a reaction.

17 - Wizard goes, regains his reaction, and takes his turn.

If it was a surprise round the wizard wouldn't be able to cast shield, not because he doesn't have a reaction but because surprise says he can't take his reaction until the end of his turn on 17.

Explaining this doesn't change that the implication is you lost a turn.
 

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