Assay Resistance overpowered?

[Doug McCrae]

I want to take this spell next level but one of my fellow players is trying to convince the GM it's overpowered. He believes it's far too good in comparison to the feat, Spell Penetration, as it provides a +10 bonus compared to +2. I'm worried the GM might house rule it to have a casting time of one standard action instead of a swift action. What do you guys think?

 

[AuraSeer]

I haven't used it in play, but my impression is that the spell is slightly overpowered, especially at mid to high levels.

When you first get access to it, it's not unbalancing, because it's your highest-level slot. You spend 2 fourth-level slots, say assay resistance plus charm monster, to get an almost guaranteed penetration of SR. You could just as easily cast charm monster twice, and you'd have a good chance that one casting would penetrate. (Using assay still gives a big benefit because it doesn't use up a round.)

However, as you go up in level, the relative cost of the spell shrinks. It still takes up only a 4th-level slot, which is of much lesser use by the time you have access to 6th- and 7th-level spells. It always remains just as useful, because unlike other spells that scale with level (like energy attacks), monsters don't ever become resistant to it.

My new campaign will include the spell as written, but on "probationary" status. If it seems too strong, we'll be changing it to cast as a standard action, which will at least ensure that there's always an opportunity cost.

 

[Thanee]

It's definitely very good, and certainly a bit better than the feats... for a sorcerer at least (for a wizard I'm not so sure). But that is mostly because you have so few feats, therefore they are pretty valuable.

One big downside is, that it only works against single opponents, Spell Penetration works against every target of your spells.

Of course, single opponents usually are the ones with the big and nasty SR, but then again, if you have no realistic chance to beat it, you'll just use spells with no SR, so the benefit is to use a more effective spell in the end with the tagged on cost of a 4th level slot.

Then, you won't know normally, that you are facing an opponent with SR, the feats work automatically, but the spell will probably be cast after one of your spells has failed already.

In the end, I don't think it's really overpowered. Especially at higher levels SR is extremely annoying for spellcasters. Assay Resistance keeps their spells useful then and does not require the expenditure of two valuable feat slots.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Saeviomagy]

In the end, I don't think it's really overpowered. Especially at higher levels SR is extremely annoying for spellcasters. Assay Resistance keeps their spells useful then and does not require the expenditure of two valuable feat slots.

Personally I think that anything which messes with SR simply cannot be overpowered. While 2/3rds of the creatures you meet have SR, it's also true that a lot of the spells you cast are not subject to it.

Oh, and spells rarely give benefits as small as that of a feat - compare the jump spell and the acrobatic feat. One gives +30, one gives +2. Guess which is which.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I think there are a few things that should be pointed out WRT the single target nature of the spell:

First, it is not true that only single targets have spell resistance. The 8th level cleric spell, Unholy Aura (and all of the other alignment auras) affect multiple targets, grant SR 25 (not negligible until the highest levels), and are at will abilities for a lot of the higher powered fiends. So, a single balor with an escort of Vrocks will not be the only foe with noticable SR. All of his attendent Vrocks (and Babau, etc) will generally have Unholy Aura SR.

Even without adding spells/abilities like Unholy Aura into the mix, groups of extra-planar foes will generally all have spell resistance--and if they are tough enough to be noticable threats, they will generally have SR that works 20-30% of the time. For instance, an evil 10th level wizard facing a group of hound archons (and it takes 8 hound archons to be EL 10, so something along the lines of an Astral Deva and 8 hound archons would, in theory, be a moderately challenging encounter for that 10th level wizard's evil party) will have a 75% chance of getting through their SR without feats. While that's not bad odds, it's definitely a noticable advantage for the celestials--and a noticable advantage that Assay Resistance won't help to counter but Spell Penetration will (and in spades!).

So, as a single target spell, it is useful and powerful against single-opponents, but Spell Penetration still has good yield against groups of foes--and foes like the hound archons without the Deva who, individually have annoying spell resistance but don't have enough to justify using Assay Resistance on.

There is also another disadvantage that has not been mentioned here:
Assay Resistance costs a swift action and characters only get one swift action per round. My high level fighter/wizard will cast a quickened spell nearly every round of a serious combat. My mid-level cleric will often cast a quickened spell and will do so with increasing frequency as he gets more high level spell slots. This factor comes into prominence as the cost spell slot cost that Auraseer analyzed fades in significance. For a 14th level wizard, a 4th level spell slot may not be a big deal. However, by the same token, he may well have quite a few quickened spells prepared. Casting Assay Resistance means forgoing the quickened scorching ray, quickened ray of enfeeblement, quickened haste, etc.

All told, I think Assay Resistance is still a very strong spell. But it pays not to overestimate its strengths or underestimate its weaknesses. Any character specializing in area effects, will find the single target aspect a large disadvantage since it renders it useless for his specialty (cleaning up the yard trash). A character who forgoes spell penetration will regret in every time he loses a spell to SR against a creature that isn't enough of a threat to merit one of his Assay Resistances but is big enough to use second or third tier spells on. And a character who uses quicken spell extensively will find the opportunity cost of Assay Resistance a bit rough (especially since the fights where it's worth using it will generally be the kind of "pull out all the stops" fights where he'd ordinarily be casting two spells/round).

 

[Thanee]

First, it is not true that only single targets have spell resistance.

I guess you refer to me... I said and meant "usually" does only one opponent have a really high SR (meaning you need to roll a good deal higher than 10 to beat it), when you meet multiple opponents with SR, it's "usually" not so high, but more average or even weak. It's extremely rare IMX to stumble upon a bunch of foes with a high SR, sure it's possible, but it's just not overly common.

So, as a single target spell, it is useful and powerful against single-opponents, but Spell Penetration still has good yield against groups of foes--and foes like the hound archons without the Deva who, individually have annoying spell resistance but don't have enough to justify using Assay Resistance on.

That's pretty much what I meant... it's good against those single nasty high SR opponents, but against groups, which tend to have a lower SR, too, Spell Penetration still has its merits.

There is also another disadvantage that has not been mentioned here:
Assay Resistance costs a swift action and characters only get one swift action per round. My high level fighter/wizard will cast a quickened spell nearly every round of a serious combat.

I actually had it in my post and then removed it before submitting.

I don't think this is a really noticeable effect, since you need to cast the spell only once. And unless you are of a really, really high level, you simply won't have so many quickened spells prepared. Sure it's one quickened spell less, but I don't think that's so bad, you still have the standard action and thus the really powerful spell, which is far more important.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

Elder Basalisk, you make some excellent points. My initial reaction to "assay resistance" was "too strong and it breaks a defence which was built into the system".

However, after thinking about the points you raise I think that it is perhaps not too strong (although sorcerers would obviously love it since they can't get quicken).

Cheers

 

[Cheiromancer]

... I think that it is perhaps not too strong (although sorcerers would obviously love it since they can't get quicken).

Cheers

It has been too long since I played a sorcerer, but I would hesitate picking a spell that really doesn't do anything on its own. Dimension Door and Enervation are much more tempting.

 

[Lamoni]

I'd like to also point out that Spell Penetration is a great feat to have IN ADDITION TO Assay Resistance. At level 12, coming across an SR 25 shouldn't bee too unusual. With nothing, you would have to roll a 13. If you use Assay Resistance you still need a 3 so you have a 10% chance of failing. If you also have Spell Penetration, you'll always succeed.

If you come up against SR 30, you will have a 35% chance of failing even with Assay Resistance. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration can knock that down to only 15%. You don't have to look at the two as either-or choices. Definately you will want to have at least one if you are a primary caster, but it would still be quite good to have both.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It has been too long since I played a sorcerer, but I would hesitate picking a spell that really doesn't do anything on its own. Dimension Door and Enervation are much more tempting.

I play a sorcerer who is 12th level and I've got more spell slots than I can use in any given days adventure. Having a 4th level spell like that which could be automatically cast along with whatever else I want to punch through spell resistance would probably be a godsend.

On the other hand, as you note, 4th level has so many tempting spells and with only four to choose... tricky