Assessing the CR for a PC... huh?!

[Brace Cormaeril]

What is the Challenge Rating for a PC of Level 1, 7, 18? How do you calculate this? I always thought that it was equal to Character Level, but looking at the entry for Death Knight from MMII, it shows that a Fighter of 7th level is CR 10... wtf?

 

[Ceska]

The Death Knight template gives a +3 to the Base Creature CR.
A NPC-fighter level 7 (CR7) with the Death Knight Template (CR+3) is a CR 10 Encounter.

When the Death Knight is a Player Character he doesn´t get the +3 CR but a +5 Level Adjustment instead (in case of our level 7 fighter he would have an ECL of 12)

 

[Shin Okada]

First of all, basically, there is no such thing as CR for a PC. There is CR for a NPC who has PC class levels. And that is his character level (total of all the class levels) assuming he is one of CR+0 race (All the core races are CR +0). Basically, core rule is not expecting PvP combat. So CR is for something PCs may conflict against, not for themselves.

And read the said example a little bit more carafullly . He is a 7th-level fighter/3rd-level Blackguard. So his character level is 10. When he was a human, his CR was 10. Now he is a Death Knight and thus the template is added and CR is now modified by +3 for 13.

Edit: In this case I meant to say CR, not LA.

 

[s-dub]

On a side note: Does anyone else find that CR for melee NPC's is far too low?

 

[Klaus]

PC-classed NPC with NPC-level wealth: CR = Level

PC-classed NPC with PC-level wealth: CR = Level +1 (this happens to lots of NPCs in Expedition to Castle Greyhawk)

 

[Herzog]

also, NPC with NPC classes CR = 1/2 lvl (if I remember correctly)

Herzog

 

[Shin Okada]

also, NPC with NPC classes CR = 1/2 lvl (if I remember correctly)

Herzog

Actually, CR = NPC class level -1. not 1/2. With some exceptions for "weak" monster races such as Goblins and Kobolds. They have special rules for them.

 

[eamon]

On a side note: Does anyone else find that CR for melee NPC's is far too low?

If you mean too high, then yes ;-). A 12th level NPC with PC classes (doesn't really matter if it's melee or not) is a lot weaker than many CR 12 monsters out there.

If the CR addition rules make any sense, then 4 monsters of CR equal to party level should be almost overpowering - but not quite. i.e., the players should have a fair chance, but certainly not almost always always win. However, an opposing party of 4 NPC's of the same level as the parties level isn't nearly that dangerous. They have a lot less wealth, tend to be less well played simply because 1 DM isn't as attentive as 4 players (though if your players are neophytes and the DM plays tactically, that might not be the case), and generally don't benefit from all the subtle ways in which PC's get advantages (any stats above 25 point buy, access to infinity+1 prestige classes, action points, etc... all make PC's much more powerful than DMG NPCs).

Even if you build custom NPC's with all the normal PC advantages but NPC wealth, that alone is worth a lot - at least at CR at 12th level.

In general, I consider an optimized, min-maxxed NPC that's played no-holds-barred to kill the PC's as CR == NPC level -1. If he's got commoner stats subtract another 1, if he's got less wealth subtract anything from 0 to 2 again, and if he's not optmized, subtract at least another 1.

This eventually means that a party twice the size of the PC party and of the same level, minmaxxed but with NPC wealth, is considered overpowering, and the PC's should flee. In practice, that's a party they actually might defeat, depending on the wealth issue, but that seems roughly fair.

Note that at very low (1-3, maybe 4) levels the PC advantage is less, since their wealth isn't as stratospheric yet.

 

[Shin Okada]

On a side note: Does anyone else find that CR for melee NPC's is far too low?

If that is a lone melee NPC, yes. If that is just a bunch of fighters or barbarians running tword you with war cries, yes, too.

But if that said melee NPC is a part of a balanced NPC party which include spellcasters, spellcasters can buff the melee types and the difference in the wealth become less obvious. For example, a 12th-level cleric can cast 2 magic vestment spells and a greater magic weapon spells to give +4 armor, +4 shield, and +4 weapon to a fighter.

Also, while most PC parties are balanced for "useful in many situations", or "to fill the needed roles for dungeon crawling", you can make a team of NPCs which is quite formidable if worked as a team in certain situation. I mean, if all the 4 NPCs are rangers, they can actually hide and sneak as a whole team (which typical PC party cannot do). If 4 fighters are really good at archery, they can be a formidable team when you are in a siege battle and trying to climb the wall or break the main gate.

NPCs with class levels are meant to know his strengh and weakness, and expected to form a good team and be in appropriate place, and use a good trick or two.

 

[Nifft]

For example, a 12th-level cleric can cast 2 magic vestment spells and a greater magic weapon spells to give +4 armor, +4 shield, and +4 weapon to a fighter.

You're thinking of 3.0e. Now he'd give +3, +3 and +3.

Also, IME an NPC Barbarian is far more dangerous than an NPC Fighter. Just like with monsters, not all NPCs of the same CR are identically challenging.

Cheers, -- N