At my wit's end! Looking for advice on problem players...
- Thread starter Ellie_the_Elf
- Start date
Thanee
First Post
1) Retract your ruling on psionics. No point to use the rules, if you ain't familiar with them.
2) Tell p5 to make a new character, because he does not conform to what you required. Also tell him, that you're sorry, but another psionic character is out of question, you tried, but your *and his* unfamiliarity with the rules is too high an obstacle for the game.
3) Don't reply in character to people who act in a non-mature way (getting too loud, no respect for the house (where you are gaming) 'rules', talk while others are speaking, etc). Tell them to shut up and wait for their turn. If they insist to be disruptive, ask them to leave.
Bye
Thanee
2) Tell p5 to make a new character, because he does not conform to what you required. Also tell him, that you're sorry, but another psionic character is out of question, you tried, but your *and his* unfamiliarity with the rules is too high an obstacle for the game.
3) Don't reply in character to people who act in a non-mature way (getting too loud, no respect for the house (where you are gaming) 'rules', talk while others are speaking, etc). Tell them to shut up and wait for their turn. If they insist to be disruptive, ask them to leave.
Bye
Thanee
Joshua Randall
Legend
Do you own the DMG II? If not, perhaps you can go to a bookstore and browse it. In any case, pay particular attention to the section on differing player motivations.
There are some players who like playing disruptive characters. If you constantly thwart them, they'll just get more and more outrageous. Usually, this ends badly.
The DMG II suggests giving those PCs a chance to be disruptive in-game. Create situations in which they can tangle with an annoying bureaucrat, get into a comical mishap, or tweak the stuffy captain of the guard. The idea is that by allowing the player to act out in the game, he will be less likely to be disruptive out of game.
There are some players who like playing disruptive characters. If you constantly thwart them, they'll just get more and more outrageous. Usually, this ends badly.
The DMG II suggests giving those PCs a chance to be disruptive in-game. Create situations in which they can tangle with an annoying bureaucrat, get into a comical mishap, or tweak the stuffy captain of the guard. The idea is that by allowing the player to act out in the game, he will be less likely to be disruptive out of game.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
The DMGII ... a work-environment psychology textbook masquerading as a gaming aid.
--fje
--fje
Raven Crowking
First Post
After all of the advice you have received, consider adding these two rules:
(1) Each instance of "Talking over the DM" docks XP by 10%.
(2) This is a heroic campaign. Anti-heroic PCs are docked XP by 10%.
When XP talks, players listen.
RC
(1) Each instance of "Talking over the DM" docks XP by 10%.
(2) This is a heroic campaign. Anti-heroic PCs are docked XP by 10%.
When XP talks, players listen.
RC
Ellie_the_Elf
First Post
Thanks again to all who've given their input.
Another update: I've talked to a couple more of my players and the concensus is that p4 is being loud out of insecurity since he's the newbie in a group that's been together for the better part of three years (and most of us have been friends a lot longer). We'll have a chat about it and give it a little longer, and see how things go..
I got an email from p5 about the situation (asking if he'd have to make a new character, campaigning for his psion and complaining about not getting additional roleplay xp for the trouble he caused (!)
My reply to him is below- you'll probably recognise a lot of it from the advice I've been given <g>
____________
I've thought long and hard about the whole situation since Monday night.
In all honesty, I am extremely unhappy with psionics, now I've seen them in play. I've tried to give them a chance- you might not think 2 weeks is a chance, but the state of the group at the moment is worrying me and I think it's getting to the stage where I do something or the group as a whole suffers. I'm not saying this is down to you/psionics (There aren't many members of the group I'm particularly happy with after monday, myself included), and I have already discussed what I perceive as problems with some of the group. I plan to discuss things with the others too pre-monday. On monday night I went home ready to quit due to various things. Now I'm calmed down a little I don't want to do that, but I do need to take steps to regain control of the game.
Which means the psionics will have to go, at least for now. There is no need to change the character too drastically if you don't want to since as far as I know the stat/skill set is similar to a wizard anyway, and you were talking for a while about making an abjurer. I'm not picking on you, and I hope you'll understand that but I think we're all too unfamiliar with the psionics rules right now for one to be a viable character option without causing arguments/hurt feelings.
Then there's the whole 'unhinged elven telepath coward' thing, as you put it. You do remember how we talked about heroic characters before the game, don't you? Right now I'd consider your psion to be chaotic neutral, possibly even chaotic evil - which falls short of the good alignment requirement whatever it happens to say on your character sheet. Perhaps what just happened could serve as a wake up call to the character, and inspire him towards more good deeds, and to try to put his past behind him and learn to be a hero? I like your whole concept and think we could do some very interesting stuff relating to your background- but the sociopathic tendancies are proving a bit of an obstacle at present.
I hope you'll understand I'm trying to work with you here, not just lay down the law. I don't want anyone to leave the group because they're not having fun, or playing a character they don't enjoy. As things are at the moment, we can work through most of this in game. I'd rather do it that way than have you end up being forced to roll a new character because the rest of the party won't adventure with the current one any more. Hopefully you agree that's a better way to do things. And I really am sorry about the psionics.
_________________________________
Apologies for the length of this post, I'll update you again when I get a response...
Ellie
Another update: I've talked to a couple more of my players and the concensus is that p4 is being loud out of insecurity since he's the newbie in a group that's been together for the better part of three years (and most of us have been friends a lot longer). We'll have a chat about it and give it a little longer, and see how things go..
I got an email from p5 about the situation (asking if he'd have to make a new character, campaigning for his psion and complaining about not getting additional roleplay xp for the trouble he caused (!)
My reply to him is below- you'll probably recognise a lot of it from the advice I've been given <g>
____________
I've thought long and hard about the whole situation since Monday night.
In all honesty, I am extremely unhappy with psionics, now I've seen them in play. I've tried to give them a chance- you might not think 2 weeks is a chance, but the state of the group at the moment is worrying me and I think it's getting to the stage where I do something or the group as a whole suffers. I'm not saying this is down to you/psionics (There aren't many members of the group I'm particularly happy with after monday, myself included), and I have already discussed what I perceive as problems with some of the group. I plan to discuss things with the others too pre-monday. On monday night I went home ready to quit due to various things. Now I'm calmed down a little I don't want to do that, but I do need to take steps to regain control of the game.
Which means the psionics will have to go, at least for now. There is no need to change the character too drastically if you don't want to since as far as I know the stat/skill set is similar to a wizard anyway, and you were talking for a while about making an abjurer. I'm not picking on you, and I hope you'll understand that but I think we're all too unfamiliar with the psionics rules right now for one to be a viable character option without causing arguments/hurt feelings.
Then there's the whole 'unhinged elven telepath coward' thing, as you put it. You do remember how we talked about heroic characters before the game, don't you? Right now I'd consider your psion to be chaotic neutral, possibly even chaotic evil - which falls short of the good alignment requirement whatever it happens to say on your character sheet. Perhaps what just happened could serve as a wake up call to the character, and inspire him towards more good deeds, and to try to put his past behind him and learn to be a hero? I like your whole concept and think we could do some very interesting stuff relating to your background- but the sociopathic tendancies are proving a bit of an obstacle at present.
I hope you'll understand I'm trying to work with you here, not just lay down the law. I don't want anyone to leave the group because they're not having fun, or playing a character they don't enjoy. As things are at the moment, we can work through most of this in game. I'd rather do it that way than have you end up being forced to roll a new character because the rest of the party won't adventure with the current one any more. Hopefully you agree that's a better way to do things. And I really am sorry about the psionics.
_________________________________
Apologies for the length of this post, I'll update you again when I get a response...
Ellie
Emirikol
Adventurer
It's Always The Dm's Fault
Nobody likes to hear this, but IT'S ALWAYS THE DM'S FAULT. If the DM doesn't sit everyone down before the game and lay down the house rules as well as the table rules, it's his own fault if players trample all over him.
Your group needs what professional sports teams use. It's called a TIME-OUT. Stop everything and have a quick discussion about ALL OF THE THINGS I LIST BELOW. YOU DECIDE THEM. THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. I've been gaming 20+ years and have always used a HOUSE RULEBOOK and TABLE RULE BOOK and my players love the consistency and that they know what to expect. The house rules are for things like whether or not you allow psionics and how you determine hit points each level. The TABLE RULEBOOK is the more important of the two. It determines the etiquette of the group. It should go without saying, but I game with adults and we go over it before the start of any major campaign and i email it out to the group anytime there's a problem. Then the players can police each other (peer pressure).
Another good thing to do is create yourself a YAHOOGROUP just for your game. It helps keep players informed.
Problem players just need to be replaced. A great way to keep people in line is to always have replacement PLAYERS in the wings. If you constantly keep a "Notice: Players Wanted" up at your local game stores and on the ONLINE player-searcher's, you will always have people in the wings. There's an old saying in business: HIRE SLOW - FIRE FAST. If you need a script on how to get rid of naughty word players, here it is,"Bob, you're just not working out. We've decided to not invite you back. I wish you luck on your future endeavours." [CLICK AND HANG UP]
THE HYBORIA CAMPAIGN
DM: Jay A. Hafner Lakewood, CO, USA
(720-480- xxxxcel) jayhafner@lxxxx.net
Online Campaign Discussion Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyboriaCampaign
Welcome to the Hyborian Dungeons & Dragons campaign! Sorcerers, beasts, roguery, battles and intrigue abound in this world of adventure. Soon, you will learn what is best in life: to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women.
Gaming in the Hyboria Campaign: Bring your own Campaign Handbook, 3/3.5E Players Handbook and any supplements you want to use. You must have consistent internet access. Be here for the whole game each session (if not, your character get’s no x.p). Warn us if you can’t make it. Respect the other players and DM and don’t be a stinker in your attitude or body odor. Don’t roll your dice all over the table. Evil and annoying characters aren’t allowed. Have some maturity when your character is killed, it’s never personal. Pick a personality weakness for your character instead of only strengths. Give your character a FANTASY name. We have limited gaming time, so keep your conversations in game. Players police their own. If you see a player who might be goofed up, set him straight. Stay sober for the game. It’s ok to have a drink, but the DM appreciates players that are conscious at the game and remember what happened.
Don’t make a lop-sided character and then complain when your weakness shows!Lastly, don’t invite new people without permission.
Rules Edition Notes: The 3.5 E D&D rules are used. The Conan RPG rules may not be used except for inspiration because they suck camel hemorrhoids and are not consistent with gaming-fun reality.
The DM does not use any standard monsters; they are played depending upon their intelligence and temperament, and as a rule nasty enemies will coup de grace PC’s if they get the chance. We have a house rulebook (sent separately from this email).
Prior knowledge about the world is not necessary, however it is helpful to have read at least one of the Conan books or comics.
------------------------------------
TABLE RULES (HANGS FROM MY DM SCREEN)
1. Players police their own.
2. NPC's do not speak to PC’s until they are introduced in-character
3. Players may re-roll “1's” on cure wounds rolls.
4. Enemy attacks will take a PC down to a maximum of (-9) and his initiative is automatically moved to last.
5. No player is ever allowed to tell another player what to do.
6. Do not vocalize unless it's on your turn and you're in-character. Speaking the names of MONSTERS, gods, spell-effects, OOC History and other cheezy metagaming will drop your x.p.
7. The DM is here to have fun. Make sure he does.
5-6-05
TABLE RULEBOOK II
So, I quizzed everybody on what they'd like to see improved in the game.
It's all little things, but mostly it revolves around getting more play-time
out of our already short sessions.
Here is our list of table rules that result from player and DM feedback:
1. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT SITTING DOWN AT THE TABLE UNTIL YOUR
CHARACTER IS FINISHED AND HAS A ROLE-PLAYABLE BACKGROUND THAT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE FUN OF THE OTHER PLAYERS.
2. NON-GAME TALK ACROSS THE TABLE IS FROWNED UPON. If you have to
talk to someone about something out of game, step away from the table or
do it before or after we play.
3. CLEAR OFF THE TABLE. SNACKS NEED TO BE PASSED AROUND AND THEN PUT ON THE SNACK TABLE.
4. DO NOT ORDER FOOD UNLESS IT WILL BE THERE ____BEFORE___ WE START.
5. WE MEET AT 6:00 AND START PLAYING AT 6:30. WE QUIT AT 10:30. We
all need to unload our week's stresses before we start, so get there
early so we can game. If you're late, we don't want to hear about the
traffic. The only thing we want to hear is,"..and Krusk comes running up
to save the day. I got an 18 on my initiative."
6. IN-CHARACTER. Either be in the game or don't. We appreciate
players who contribute to the game. A monkey can roll dice and report
numbers. That contributes nothing to the game or to the fun of anyone else.
Refer to your fellow players by their character names while we are at the
table and justify your skill rank assignments and feats with some kind of story.
7. RELATE TO THE OTHER CHARACTERS. Create two non-obvious things your
character has in common with ith at least one other character.
8. BACK-UP CHARACTER. Here are your assigned backup characters if you
do not already have one (modify it if you like).
J.Ward.......Theteles the Ophirian (Hyborian),Ftr-2/Brd-2 (hp26;
AC15; Melee+7/Rng+7; Saves FRW+6/+5/+3 Skill pts:34; Feats: Spell
penetration, greater spell penetration; negotiator; exotic weapon
proficiency; GEAR: mwk studded leather; mwk buckler; mwk heavy
repeating xbow; mwk ranseur; mwk heavy flail
J.Reynolds...Khossus the Kothian (Hyborian),Rog-4 (hp20; AC 17;
Melee +5/Rng+7; Saves FRW+2/+7/+1 Skill pts (70); Feats: Acrobatic;
Agile; GEAR: mwk studded leather, mwk buckler, mwk hand crossbow,
mwk longspear, mwk dagger, mwk club
Christy......Alcina the Barachan Islander, Mnk-2/wiz2; (hp14; AC13;
unarmed+3; Flurry+1/1; Melee +5; Ranged +4; Saves: F/R/W/+5/+6/+9
Skill pts(24); Feats: improved grapple; deflect arrows; combat
casting; improved initiative
Sean.........Chunder of Vendyhan, Rgr-4(nonspell) (hp 34; AC 17;
Melee+7/Rng+8; SavesF/R/W/:+5/+7/+2; Skill pts(42); Feats: exotic
weapon proficiency, combat reflexes; GEAR: mwk studded leatehr; mwk
bolas (3); mwk heavy pick
Kevin........Tut-Ahk-Amon the Stygian, Rog-2/Clr-2 (hp24; AC 17;
Melee+5/Rng+7; SAVES F/R/W: +6/+4/+5; Skill pts (52); Feats:
Endurace, Diehard; GEAR: mwk studded leather; mwk buckler; mwk short
khopesh(sword); (4) mwk daggers
Steve........Drago of Aquilonia, Ftr-4 (hp34; AC 18; Melee+8/Rng+6;
Saves: F+6(+8), R+2(+4), W+2; Skill pts(14); Feats: Great Fortitude;
Lightning Reflexes; Two-weapon fighting(dex 15 req); exotic weapon
proficiency: GEAR: SPlint, heavy shield, masterwork
two-bladed-sword; 4 javelins
Sumit........Wulfhere of Hyperborea, Bbn-4 (hp35; AC 17;
Melee+8/Rng+7; Saves F/R/W: +5/+3/+2; Skill pts(28); Feats: Blind
Fight, Exotic Weapon proficiency; GEAR: Mwk breastplate, masterwork
war-axe; (4) spears
J.Hohler.....Balthus the Gunderman, Ftr-4 (hp34; AC 18;
Melee+8/Rng+6; Saves: F+6, R+2, W+2; Skill pts(14); Feats: Animal
Affinity; Mounted Combat; Trample; exotic weapon proficiency: GEAR:
SPlint, heavy shield, masterwork dire flail; 4 spears
jh
..
Nobody likes to hear this, but IT'S ALWAYS THE DM'S FAULT. If the DM doesn't sit everyone down before the game and lay down the house rules as well as the table rules, it's his own fault if players trample all over him.
Your group needs what professional sports teams use. It's called a TIME-OUT. Stop everything and have a quick discussion about ALL OF THE THINGS I LIST BELOW. YOU DECIDE THEM. THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. I've been gaming 20+ years and have always used a HOUSE RULEBOOK and TABLE RULE BOOK and my players love the consistency and that they know what to expect. The house rules are for things like whether or not you allow psionics and how you determine hit points each level. The TABLE RULEBOOK is the more important of the two. It determines the etiquette of the group. It should go without saying, but I game with adults and we go over it before the start of any major campaign and i email it out to the group anytime there's a problem. Then the players can police each other (peer pressure).
Another good thing to do is create yourself a YAHOOGROUP just for your game. It helps keep players informed.
Problem players just need to be replaced. A great way to keep people in line is to always have replacement PLAYERS in the wings. If you constantly keep a "Notice: Players Wanted" up at your local game stores and on the ONLINE player-searcher's, you will always have people in the wings. There's an old saying in business: HIRE SLOW - FIRE FAST. If you need a script on how to get rid of naughty word players, here it is,"Bob, you're just not working out. We've decided to not invite you back. I wish you luck on your future endeavours." [CLICK AND HANG UP]
THE HYBORIA CAMPAIGN
DM: Jay A. Hafner Lakewood, CO, USA
(720-480- xxxxcel) jayhafner@lxxxx.net
Online Campaign Discussion Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyboriaCampaign
Welcome to the Hyborian Dungeons & Dragons campaign! Sorcerers, beasts, roguery, battles and intrigue abound in this world of adventure. Soon, you will learn what is best in life: to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women.
Gaming in the Hyboria Campaign: Bring your own Campaign Handbook, 3/3.5E Players Handbook and any supplements you want to use. You must have consistent internet access. Be here for the whole game each session (if not, your character get’s no x.p). Warn us if you can’t make it. Respect the other players and DM and don’t be a stinker in your attitude or body odor. Don’t roll your dice all over the table. Evil and annoying characters aren’t allowed. Have some maturity when your character is killed, it’s never personal. Pick a personality weakness for your character instead of only strengths. Give your character a FANTASY name. We have limited gaming time, so keep your conversations in game. Players police their own. If you see a player who might be goofed up, set him straight. Stay sober for the game. It’s ok to have a drink, but the DM appreciates players that are conscious at the game and remember what happened.
Don’t make a lop-sided character and then complain when your weakness shows!Lastly, don’t invite new people without permission.
Rules Edition Notes: The 3.5 E D&D rules are used. The Conan RPG rules may not be used except for inspiration because they suck camel hemorrhoids and are not consistent with gaming-fun reality.
The DM does not use any standard monsters; they are played depending upon their intelligence and temperament, and as a rule nasty enemies will coup de grace PC’s if they get the chance. We have a house rulebook (sent separately from this email).
Prior knowledge about the world is not necessary, however it is helpful to have read at least one of the Conan books or comics.
------------------------------------
TABLE RULES (HANGS FROM MY DM SCREEN)
1. Players police their own.
2. NPC's do not speak to PC’s until they are introduced in-character
3. Players may re-roll “1's” on cure wounds rolls.
4. Enemy attacks will take a PC down to a maximum of (-9) and his initiative is automatically moved to last.
5. No player is ever allowed to tell another player what to do.
6. Do not vocalize unless it's on your turn and you're in-character. Speaking the names of MONSTERS, gods, spell-effects, OOC History and other cheezy metagaming will drop your x.p.
7. The DM is here to have fun. Make sure he does.
5-6-05
TABLE RULEBOOK II
So, I quizzed everybody on what they'd like to see improved in the game.
It's all little things, but mostly it revolves around getting more play-time
out of our already short sessions.
Here is our list of table rules that result from player and DM feedback:
1. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT SITTING DOWN AT THE TABLE UNTIL YOUR
CHARACTER IS FINISHED AND HAS A ROLE-PLAYABLE BACKGROUND THAT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE FUN OF THE OTHER PLAYERS.
2. NON-GAME TALK ACROSS THE TABLE IS FROWNED UPON. If you have to
talk to someone about something out of game, step away from the table or
do it before or after we play.
3. CLEAR OFF THE TABLE. SNACKS NEED TO BE PASSED AROUND AND THEN PUT ON THE SNACK TABLE.
4. DO NOT ORDER FOOD UNLESS IT WILL BE THERE ____BEFORE___ WE START.
5. WE MEET AT 6:00 AND START PLAYING AT 6:30. WE QUIT AT 10:30. We
all need to unload our week's stresses before we start, so get there
early so we can game. If you're late, we don't want to hear about the
traffic. The only thing we want to hear is,"..and Krusk comes running up
to save the day. I got an 18 on my initiative."
6. IN-CHARACTER. Either be in the game or don't. We appreciate
players who contribute to the game. A monkey can roll dice and report
numbers. That contributes nothing to the game or to the fun of anyone else.
Refer to your fellow players by their character names while we are at the
table and justify your skill rank assignments and feats with some kind of story.
7. RELATE TO THE OTHER CHARACTERS. Create two non-obvious things your
character has in common with ith at least one other character.
8. BACK-UP CHARACTER. Here are your assigned backup characters if you
do not already have one (modify it if you like).
J.Ward.......Theteles the Ophirian (Hyborian),Ftr-2/Brd-2 (hp26;
AC15; Melee+7/Rng+7; Saves FRW+6/+5/+3 Skill pts:34; Feats: Spell
penetration, greater spell penetration; negotiator; exotic weapon
proficiency; GEAR: mwk studded leather; mwk buckler; mwk heavy
repeating xbow; mwk ranseur; mwk heavy flail
J.Reynolds...Khossus the Kothian (Hyborian),Rog-4 (hp20; AC 17;
Melee +5/Rng+7; Saves FRW+2/+7/+1 Skill pts (70); Feats: Acrobatic;
Agile; GEAR: mwk studded leather, mwk buckler, mwk hand crossbow,
mwk longspear, mwk dagger, mwk club
Christy......Alcina the Barachan Islander, Mnk-2/wiz2; (hp14; AC13;
unarmed+3; Flurry+1/1; Melee +5; Ranged +4; Saves: F/R/W/+5/+6/+9
Skill pts(24); Feats: improved grapple; deflect arrows; combat
casting; improved initiative
Sean.........Chunder of Vendyhan, Rgr-4(nonspell) (hp 34; AC 17;
Melee+7/Rng+8; SavesF/R/W/:+5/+7/+2; Skill pts(42); Feats: exotic
weapon proficiency, combat reflexes; GEAR: mwk studded leatehr; mwk
bolas (3); mwk heavy pick
Kevin........Tut-Ahk-Amon the Stygian, Rog-2/Clr-2 (hp24; AC 17;
Melee+5/Rng+7; SAVES F/R/W: +6/+4/+5; Skill pts (52); Feats:
Endurace, Diehard; GEAR: mwk studded leather; mwk buckler; mwk short
khopesh(sword); (4) mwk daggers
Steve........Drago of Aquilonia, Ftr-4 (hp34; AC 18; Melee+8/Rng+6;
Saves: F+6(+8), R+2(+4), W+2; Skill pts(14); Feats: Great Fortitude;
Lightning Reflexes; Two-weapon fighting(dex 15 req); exotic weapon
proficiency: GEAR: SPlint, heavy shield, masterwork
two-bladed-sword; 4 javelins
Sumit........Wulfhere of Hyperborea, Bbn-4 (hp35; AC 17;
Melee+8/Rng+7; Saves F/R/W: +5/+3/+2; Skill pts(28); Feats: Blind
Fight, Exotic Weapon proficiency; GEAR: Mwk breastplate, masterwork
war-axe; (4) spears
J.Hohler.....Balthus the Gunderman, Ftr-4 (hp34; AC 18;
Melee+8/Rng+6; Saves: F+6, R+2, W+2; Skill pts(14); Feats: Animal
Affinity; Mounted Combat; Trample; exotic weapon proficiency: GEAR:
SPlint, heavy shield, masterwork dire flail; 4 spears
jh
..
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Oh man... I'm a big fan of psionics, but if you aren't familiar with those rules, you shouldn't allow PC psions. That's kind of bad for the other player who wanted to play a psion and knew those rules, but even though you know he won't cheat, they do have an effect on plots, encounters, etc.
Be sure to only allow one group of PCs to operate at a time. So if P5 goes off on his own, tell him "he finds nothing interesting" and go back to the true heroes.
Be sure to only allow one group of PCs to operate at a time. So if P5 goes off on his own, tell him "he finds nothing interesting" and go back to the true heroes.
The Thayan Menace
First Post
LOL ....HeapThaumaturgist said:
