At what level get a +5 item?
- Thread starter Phaedrus
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
A common rule of thumb seems to be that a character shouldn't have a single item worth more than 50% of his recommended wealth-by-level, although this line is blurred at low levels when just about anything magical costs around 2000gp.
This guideline would suggest:
+1: level 4
+2: level 7
+3: level 9
+4: level 11
+5: level 13
Another way to look at it is "When do they need those weapons?"
A grick has DR 15/+1, and it's CR 3.
A kyton has DR 20/+2, and it's CR 6.
An night hag has DR 20/+3, and it's CR 9.
The third way I'd suggest is look at GMW, and what levels a caster can insta-create those weapons:
+1 at level 5
+2 at level 6
+3 at level 9
+4 at level 12
+5 at level 15
-Hyp.
This guideline would suggest:
+1: level 4
+2: level 7
+3: level 9
+4: level 11
+5: level 13
Another way to look at it is "When do they need those weapons?"
A grick has DR 15/+1, and it's CR 3.
A kyton has DR 20/+2, and it's CR 6.
An night hag has DR 20/+3, and it's CR 9.
The third way I'd suggest is look at GMW, and what levels a caster can insta-create those weapons:
+1 at level 5
+2 at level 6
+3 at level 9
+4 at level 12
+5 at level 15
-Hyp.
Thank you for your response.
I asked because I'm playing Neverwinter Nights and as a 12th level character just now found a +2 sword. That got me thinking about it. I looked up the typical NPC's in the DMG and the fighter listed never gets a +5 item...
...so I was wondering what the community would have to say.
I asked because I'm playing Neverwinter Nights and as a 12th level character just now found a +2 sword. That got me thinking about it. I looked up the typical NPC's in the DMG and the fighter listed never gets a +5 item...
...so I was wondering what the community would have to say.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
NPCs are different, of course... their recommended wealth-by-level is lower past about level 2.
By that first rule-of-thumb, they wouldn't be eligible for a 50,000gp item until level 17 or 18.
But that 50,000gp eats into his total... and he probably wouldn't be able to afford his +4 full plate, +3 shield, +6 belt of giant strength, ring of protection +4, cloak of resistance +3, pink ioun stone, and helm of teleportation.
A +5 sword is nice, but it costs 18,000 gp more than a +4... it's a big tradeoff.
-Hyp.
By that first rule-of-thumb, they wouldn't be eligible for a 50,000gp item until level 17 or 18.
But that 50,000gp eats into his total... and he probably wouldn't be able to afford his +4 full plate, +3 shield, +6 belt of giant strength, ring of protection +4, cloak of resistance +3, pink ioun stone, and helm of teleportation.
A +5 sword is nice, but it costs 18,000 gp more than a +4... it's a big tradeoff.
-Hyp.
dcollins
Explorer
Nice analysis, Hypersmurf.
Yet another way of considering this is to evaluate the likelihood that such items show up when using the random treasure tables in DMG chapter 7 -- tables which not many people (I think) realize are statistically pretty stingy with treasure and magic items.
Consider (with some approximations):
- +5 enhanced armor and weapons can only ever show up as "major items" (Tables 8-3 and 8-10).
- For all "major items", 10% are armor and another 10% weapons (Table 8-2).
- For major armor, about 33% (19/57) are +5 enhanced (Table 8-3).
- For major weapons, about 22% (11/49) are +5 enhanced (Table 8-10).
- Hence for all "major items", the chance of a +5 enhanced armor or weapon is about: .33 x .10 + .22 x .10 = 5.5%.
Then, if we look at the treasure table (Table 7-4), we see that "major items" are in fact quite rare, starting at a 1% chance for EL 10 and working up from there. For the following, I assume all encounters are at the party's level, and multiply by the 13.33 encounters expected over the course of that level, to see the chance of encountering any +5 item at any time during one party level:
- EL 10: listed 1% for 1 major item; so .01 x .055 x 13.33 = 0.73% chance for a single +5 item any time through 10th level.
- EL 15: listed 10% for 1 major item; so .10 x .055 x 13.33 = 7.3% chance for a single +5 item through 15th level.
- EL 18: listed 20% for 1 major item; so .20 x .055 x 13.33 = 14.7 % chance for a single +5 item through 18th level.
- EL 20: listed 35% for 1d3 major items; so on average .35 x 2 x .055 x 13.33 = 51% chance for a +5 enhanced armor or shield throughout 20th level.
There are some minor approximations made in there, but nothing I believe changes the final conclusions (e.g., it considers only armor/shield enhancements bonuses -- not adding in armor/shield special abilities, not counting +6 rings or bracers , etc.). Using solely the DMG tables, there's only about a 50/50 chance for any party to find a +5 item throughout the entire 20th level of a party's adventuring career.
Yet another way of considering this is to evaluate the likelihood that such items show up when using the random treasure tables in DMG chapter 7 -- tables which not many people (I think) realize are statistically pretty stingy with treasure and magic items.
Consider (with some approximations):
- +5 enhanced armor and weapons can only ever show up as "major items" (Tables 8-3 and 8-10).
- For all "major items", 10% are armor and another 10% weapons (Table 8-2).
- For major armor, about 33% (19/57) are +5 enhanced (Table 8-3).
- For major weapons, about 22% (11/49) are +5 enhanced (Table 8-10).
- Hence for all "major items", the chance of a +5 enhanced armor or weapon is about: .33 x .10 + .22 x .10 = 5.5%.
Then, if we look at the treasure table (Table 7-4), we see that "major items" are in fact quite rare, starting at a 1% chance for EL 10 and working up from there. For the following, I assume all encounters are at the party's level, and multiply by the 13.33 encounters expected over the course of that level, to see the chance of encountering any +5 item at any time during one party level:
- EL 10: listed 1% for 1 major item; so .01 x .055 x 13.33 = 0.73% chance for a single +5 item any time through 10th level.
- EL 15: listed 10% for 1 major item; so .10 x .055 x 13.33 = 7.3% chance for a single +5 item through 15th level.
- EL 18: listed 20% for 1 major item; so .20 x .055 x 13.33 = 14.7 % chance for a single +5 item through 18th level.
- EL 20: listed 35% for 1d3 major items; so on average .35 x 2 x .055 x 13.33 = 51% chance for a +5 enhanced armor or shield throughout 20th level.
There are some minor approximations made in there, but nothing I believe changes the final conclusions (e.g., it considers only armor/shield enhancements bonuses -- not adding in armor/shield special abilities, not counting +6 rings or bracers , etc.). Using solely the DMG tables, there's only about a 50/50 chance for any party to find a +5 item throughout the entire 20th level of a party's adventuring career.
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Kae'Yoss
First Post
Another good reference is the Samurai's Ancestral Dai-Sho, which allows him to "awaken" powers in his Weapons with the sacrifice of Gold and Items (OA) or XP (Rokugan d20), effectively turning his katana and/or wakizashi into a magic weapon. He can turn them into a +1 weapon at 4th-level, +2 @ 7th, +3 @ 9th, +4 @ 11th, +5 @ 13th (like Hypersmurph's first example).
Destil
Explorer
Neverwinter nights does not confirm to 3E wealth guidelines at all. Not even close. The're pricing system is so far from 3E's it's not even compairable, and the accual power level is FAR to low (despite having a rather high GP value- most items are drasticaly inflated in price). NWN also has very strict restrictions on what level you can be to use equipment, very Diablo like. There's stuff there that cleary breaks 3E rules, like equipment with +1 ability score bonuses that cost around 5k.Phaedrus said:
Most likely they just used an ad hoc 2e sort of pricing system. All in all a huge disipointment for me, since the game has a fairly good representation of third edition rules in other reguards. (Ice Wind Dale II has this problem, too, but has the excuse of running a rules set that can only be described as AD&D 2E and D&D 3E's bastard love child)
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I'm so disappointed - I was hoping NWN would be like Baldur's Gate, but 3e. I don't want to see another Icewind Dale II or BG2 weird hybrid. Why would they mess up the wealth guidelines? (Sheesh!)
What else did they mess up?
What else did they mess up?
doktorstick
First Post
Everything.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
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