Atheism in DnD Campaigns

A very good article on this is in Dragon Magazine #302 IIRC (I am not sure about this, but it is in one between 302 and 305). It has a lot of philosophical outlooks ranging from indifference, disbelief but also insignificance ("If there are gods, why does my life even matter?"). Very interesting, and well worth reading.

Rav
 

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Psion said:
That's merely mincing definitions, IMO.
[...]
To say that gods are not gods seems to me purely an exercise is semantics.

A theory with no practical implications is "merely mincing" and "an exercise in semantics". If you can test and use the results of a theory, it ain't mere anything.

Some examples for the weak of imagination:

THEORY: "The Gods are not true entities, they are the collective unconscious of all living beings, powered and controlled by their worshippers."
IMPLICATION: You can kill a god by killing the idea of the god in its worshippers. Alternately, you can "poison" a god by changing its worshippers' mental gestalt. Perhaps you can become a god by gaining enough worshippers.

THEORY: "There is a power beyond the gods from which they draw their strength. This entity is the True God."
IMPLICATION: You can kill a god by convincing the Entity that it needs killin'. Alternately, you can become a god by somehow getting power from the Entity.

THEORY: "The gods are mere Celestials -- powerful and immortal, but no more justified in their agendas than the Arch-Fiends they oppose."
IMPLICATION: Demon and devil worshippers get to draw "Divine" power just like god worshippers. What if the entity you thought was a Good god turned out to be an Evil (but very calculating) fiend? As above, it yeilds a path to becoming a god, too.

Each of these questions the nature of divinity. Not the fact of the gods' existance or power -- that's just silly -- but whether they deserve to be defined as "the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world" (from Merriam-Webster's definition of theism).

-- Nifft
 

DocMoriartty said:
One could easily argue though that the gods are merely extremely powerful beings who can be wrong and can be killed, thus are not really gods.

Spoken like someone immersed in the modern monotheistic tradition. :)

As others have mentioned, infallability and unkillability are not generally traits of gods in pagan religions. The Norse gods could certainly be killed - that's what Ragnarok is all about. And the Greek gods are hardly infallible - the whole Trojan War is based upon divine vanity. :)

For fantasy worlds, I don't think that disbelief n the gods is like disbelief in kings. The thing that cannot be denied is the existance of power. Divine spells and powers exist, and the power for them comes from somewhere - but the "fact" that they come from gods is generally hearsay. The observation is that the use of these powers is tied to belief and/or dedication. There's generally no direct observation of the power coming from a deity - which is cool, because that still allows you play with faith-based stories. :)

If you play strictly by the PHB, in fact, there's little proof of the existence of gods, because druids, clerics, paladins and rangers don't need to follow a god. Most DMs require it, it's standard operating procedure in most settings to follow one of the setting's gods, but the PHB doesn't require it :)

If the system doesn't require the existence of gods, then the game must allow for the non-existance of those gods, and thus some form of non-belief is possible.

An "atheist" may think the power is more akin to psi, or another form of the same power as arcane magic (especialy since arcane and divine casters often produce the ecaxt same results). Or, perhaps it's enough to have strong belief, but by and large most people frame that belief in terms of thise god icons (it's easier to have a handle on "Pelor" as a personality than on "Sun and Strength" as ideas alone).
 
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Nifft said:
THEORY: "The gods are mere Celestials -- powerful and immortal, but no more justified in their agendas than the Arch-Fiends they oppose."
IMPLICATION: Demon and devil worshippers get to draw "Divine" power just like god worshippers. What if the entity you thought was a Good god turned out to be an Evil (but very calculating) fiend? As above, it yeilds a path to becoming a god, too.

If the gods are mere Celestials... what are Evil gods? Evil Celestials?
 


Nifft said:
Each of these questions the nature of divinity.

Debating the nature of divinity is a whole different beast than debating their existence.

Not the fact of the gods' existance or power -- that's just silly --

And that's Atheism.

but whether they deserve to be defined as "the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world" (from Merriam-Webster's definition of theism).

Ah, but the defition of atheism is not merely the antithesis of theism as you have defined it above. It is: "Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods."

It is certain in the typical campaign that gods exist. You may debate the reach of their power, their role in the cosmos, etc. But their existence is a fundamental reality of the game.
 
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Re: Re: Atheism in DnD Campaigns

Umbran said:
Spoken like someone immersed in the modern monotheistic tradition. :)

Precisely. This is why I think the idea of atheism is silly in the typical D&D campaign... it very typically looks at the issue from a metagame point of view.

To a character in the setting, there are no external definitions of deity. A god is a being worshipped, that has a sphere of influence, impact, or concern in the world, and grants divine magic to certain followers. You attach too much more to it than that, you are starting to pull questions into the equation which are really immaterial in the mileu.
 

Ya know I could see an argument like this:
Believer: "So you're an atheist huh?"
Atheist: "Yep"
B: What are clerics then?
A: Well we have wizards, and sorcerers, clerics are just a different kind of user of magic. Its a different system if you will.
B: But the gods exist!
A: I've never seen one? Have you?
B: Why yes.
A: And how did you know he was a god?
B: He said so.
A: Is that all?
B: Well, he's also immortal.
A: So is the terresque.
B: But he had all these powers and stuff.
A: So does Bob the wizard (level 20). Your point?
B: And there were angels attending him.
A: And I've seen angles attend Bob too (gate).
B: So maybe Bob is a god.
A: Bob died last week.
B: oh.
A: So you think Gods are immortal beings with supernatural powers?
B: Right!
A: And dead and forgotten gods?
B: Ummmm.
A: Care to redefine God?
B: What do you mean?
A: Look at that ant. As far as it is concerned I am immortal. I have wonderous powers, like bringing forth fire with this magnifying lens. And what's more, the things I do are ineffable to said ant.
B: Ineffable?
A: Yes. So therefore I am a god.
B: But -
A: No buts, I am a god.
<bzzzzappp!>
As the aetheist is smitten down by a god who was getting ticked by this argument.

Sorry imagination started running away there.
-cpd
 

For a tongue-in-cheek kind of an atheist in a fantasy world, there was a soldier in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel Small Gods, who didn't believe in the existence of gods. This remained his view even when confronted by a god.
"Don't think that you can get around me just because you exist."
 

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