Atheism in DnD Campaigns

[Nifft]

I'd expect people to start to wonder where the line between great adventurers and the gods is drawn...

20th level -- any commoner child could tell you that!

Originally posted by Psion
I think it's pretty clear that in the typical D&D campaign, #2 best fits the functional definition of "gods."

Look, "divinity" is campaign specific. Therefore, the "divinity" of the "gods" is campaign specific. It's possible to have people worshipping things in one campaign which aren't "divine" even in that campaign, too. So, the question of atheism is more complex in a D&D society than it is in our largely monotheistic, Judeo-Christian society.

-- Nifft

 

[The Blue Elf]

Ever had someone play an atheist? How do you have the clergy of various Gods react to them?

I am curious because I have seen many people argue that atheism is an impossible concept in DnD since there is quite obviously gods.

One could easily argue though that the gods are merely extremely powerful beings who can be wrong and can be killed, thus are not really gods.

Well that depends I played a Barbarain who doesn't care for gods,sometimes he doesn't fear them. In second edition you could kill a god at 12th- 20th level as I remember but now Third edition you have to be epic to kill a god and that just hurts the players hopes.

Because they have a AC of over 40 and you have a base attack limited to 20 plus the Strength bonuse it won't do much.Considering in D&D books some of these Heroes have challenge gods and won . For example In the Book Queen of the Demon Webpits a 5th level expert had backstab a goddess which I understand it was just made up but still they screwed up big time.Yes, you can kill a god,but they are immortal,and they can comeback.

 

[fusangite]

Thanks guys for reminding me about the most disgusting aspect of D&D "theology" -- gods as quantified NPCs. I really liked old 2nd edition Runequest's way of stating that they were a little different; they decided to describe the Crimson Bat, the demon steed of the Red Goddess. They gave its stats; while characters had a strength of 18 or less, the bat's strength was 750. They gave the stats of the ticks in its fur; they were strong enough to kill most characters. That sort of put a stop to people thinking of Runequest gods in the way the DDG chose to describe gods in D&D terms. RQ was more interested in useful details about gods -- how the hierarchies of their churches work, what kind of special spells they can grant their worshippers, their myths and legends, etc.

I was so surprised that 3E chose to stick to the old D&D ideas about gods who aren't high enough level clerics to cast the spells they themselves grant.

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hello,

Ah, this is reminding me of one of my favorite classic campaign worlds, Birthright. The elves there were, after a fashion, atheists, having no organized religion and no clerics. They were magically powerful, and knew of the existence of outer-planar Powers, of course. But to bind oneself to their service, merely for the sake of some spell-casting power? Such debasement is a thing for goblins and orogs, not for a race steeped in the ancient arcane might of the elves...

Posted by fusangite:
I was so surprised that 3E chose to stick to the old D&D ideas about gods who aren't high enough level clerics to cast the spells they themselves grant.

As I understand it, the "stats" given for gods in the various editions of D&D never represented a god's full power, but only the power of material "avatars" they could create, which were limited in power for reasons that were never more than vaguely specified. I've had only limited peeks into the 3e DDG, so I'm not sure how true that still is. The best D&D treatment of the matter I've seen was in the BD&D Immortals rules, where even the lowest-level Immortals ("gods") had essentially unlimited spellcasting, freedom from various mortal limitations, the ability to crank their stats far out of mortal ranges, and so forth; but could create mortal "avatars" for use on the Prime Plane, where most interference in their "true" forms was prohibited by mutual agreement, enforced by leaders of the "Spheres" among which they were divided.

Hope this helps!

 

[s/LaSH]

Originally posted by Umbran
When 500 workmen at the kings new castle site have seen Whizbhang the Wonderful use stone shape and move earth spells, why do we need so much attributed to the gods? When adventurers are running around slaying dragons (rather than having Marduk do all the dragon wrestling), then I'd expect people to start to wonder where the line between great adventurers and the gods is drawn...

Well, where does Whizbhang think his power comes from? Does he talk about gods as he does his work? If he's that strong, he may well have encountered things of divine nature, or just done enough research to confirm the fact that magic itself has a controlling God.

Furthermore, are the workers going to treat Whizbhang as another worker, or as something mysterious and terrible that happens to be walking amongst them? And why aren't there clerics and druids on-site lending a helping prayer?

The point: that high-level adventurers will often be mistaken for gods of one kind or another. People who grew up with them will go, 'Oh yeah, that's Whizbhang, he wet his bed when he was 8,' and thus be rather blase about it, but by the same coin they'll share Whizbhang's experiences with the divine, they'll just think gods are more powerful. People who don't know adventurers will be a little in awe of them. Wouldn't you?

---

The Immortals rules - those were great. To memory, an Initiate-level immortal has 500 power points. Wish costs 20. Regeneration rate can be rather high depending on elemental alignment. Powerful much? Methinks not. Initiates probably don't even have most of their ability scores above 20! These immortals are all ascendant heroes of one age or another. Somethign to bear in mind.

 

[Kweezil]

Given that people in a world won't necessarily understand how magic works, and the gods themselves rarely show up in person, maybe there are people who don't believe that clerics are any different from wizards. They both cast spells after all. I can even understand wizards as atheists, particularly those from countries where clerics aren't common. Maybe they see clerics as other wizards who are keeping the secrets of healing to themselves (selfish jerks...). IIRC Glantri from Mystara was like this.

 

[Storminator]

Thanks guys for reminding me about the most disgusting aspect of D&D "theology" -- gods as quantified NPCs...

<SNIP>

I dislike this too. IMC, the first few blows between the avatars of the gods nearly destroyed the world. Fortunately for humanity, the gods are taking a "moment." I put them far and away above mortals.

That approach isn't for all campaigns, tho. Gods have been killed in lots of stories, and some campaigns trend that way.

PS

 

[The Blue Elf]

I dislike this too. IMC, the first few blows between the avatars of the gods nearly destroyed the world. Fortunately for humanity, the gods are taking a "moment." I put them far and away above mortals.

That approach isn't for all campaigns, tho. Gods have been killed in lots of stories, and some campaigns trend that way.

PS

Sometimes some players tend to attempt to take Divine ranks from the gods thinking they can be gods. But sometimes they become the Evil or Good gods they take it from you have to take the portfolo of the god which I really hate that rule. The question of how to be a great hero to god is not an easy way to be.

 

[Phoenix8008]

In answer to the first question, I have played an athiest character before in D&D. He was a dwarf who very loudly proclaimed that he didn't believe in any gods. When a cleric came up to him and tried to prove him wrong by showing him that he had spells given to him by his God, my dwarf just said "So what, I can do that too!". Then he proceeded to cast a clerical spell! You see, the God of Trickery so loved the mischief this caused that he granted the dwarf clerical spells just for this purpose!

 

[Kanegrundar]

I've had a couple agnostic players, but never an atheist. Most of my campaigns sport enough religious happenings that it makes it really hard to justify a truly atheistic character. I always hoped someone would try though. It would be interesting to hear a character proclaim that there are no gods even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Kane