Attacking a walled structure - any experience?

[foreverdarkwoods]

Hello. New here, but I found this place looking for a forum to get some feedback on how to design an ancounter/make it winnable.

Basically, I am the DM of a party that likes to just rush in and steamroll everything. Usually when I design encounters, steamrolling them is their first instinct. And they're pretty good at it too. But based on feedback I've gotten from them, they like it more when I put a little twist on the encounters and force them to go about it differently. As a result of this, I designed some puzzles and some encounters which they had to approach more carefully and where simply steamrolling everything wasn't an option. Sure, they managed to steamroll some of these as well, as steamrolling and breaking things are their first instincts, but they appreciated the encounters which had a twist to them. So now I'm trying my hand at a type of encounter I have never tried before during my time as a dm, and it's one they certainly can't just steamroll. I do, however need some feedback and some help to make sure it's actually winnable but still interesting and challenging.

The party have at this point been tasked with removing an enclave of necromancers, a few mercenaries they've hired and some of their undead from an encampment they've made in a cave in the mountains. I needed to make sure that they couldn't simply steamroll the entire encampment and take out the fragile necromancers instantly, and after some deliberation I drew a grid map of the area outside of the cave where they are holed up, featuring a primitive wall around the cave entrance with one barred gate as the only entrance and sharp wooden poles sticking out towards the outside.

The purpose of this is to prove to be somewhat of a challenge. To get into the cave where the necromancers are holed up, the fort outside has to be breached somehow. Simply steamrolling it isn't really an option, and the wall, being a wooden pallisade is sturdy enough to not be easily breakable. There are some trees around it, and during the night it would perhaps be possible to sneak up to it. I have considered the players setting fire to it as an option for them regarding how to deal with it, but other than that I really don't know how it could be handled. I really like the idea of having the party attack a walled structure (it also gives me the oppurtunity to use a really large battlemap), but I'm not sure the party will be able to survive the attack. But then again the party is around ECL 8 and can take a bit of punishment at this point.

So first thing I'd like to know is:

Does anybody have any experience regarding this kind of scenario? Is it even viable? What are some ways a party could pull it off (the party in question is one barbarian, one ranger, one cleric, one ninja and one warmage)? I have considered giving them some mercenaries they can control so that they have some kind of meat shield or distraction. Is this a good idea.

Second thing I really would like is some suggstions regarding what kind of enemies to use here. Archers on the wall are a given, probably a mix between skeleton archers and mercenaries (neither particularily strong on their own, but owing their difficulty mostly to the wall). Aside from this, I've considered using mounted skeleton warriors on skeletal horses to be sent out through the gates in case the party is spotted on approach. This means the party having to fight riding skeletons in a vast open area. Other than that, I don't know what kind of undead could be used to spice up the encounter (skeletons can be very easily turned, and as such I don't think only skeletons is a good idea with a level 8 cleric around). Any suggestions?

 

[sabrinathecat]

There are trees near the pallisade? where did the wood come from to build it then? They know enough to build a wall, but not to clear the area of anything that might provide cover, concealment, or a tool to bypass their expensive and time-consuming defensive wall? What about flying? Can any of the characters fly?

Otherwise, a padded grappling hook and rope should be enough for the players to get over that wall (hook can anchor to those spikes you mentioned. Sure, the rogue/thief might need to disarm traps or something to make it safe for the party to get over without impaling itself.

If the party wants to steam-roll, they'll have to build siege engines. That could be fun and challenging for them.

What level is this party? The magic options open to them could break this before it even starts.

Defenses... Add a cave troll. Or an ogre and call it a cave troll. Because, well, there's a cave...
Give the defenders a couple of healers just to annoy the heck out of the party. Maybe a full-fledged cleric worshiper of undeath, who can heal the defenders and put up those nasty spells that make the party cringe (hey, fair is fair--mostly the same spells the party likes to throw at the monsters, right?) And maybe the Cleric can bring back the fallen mercs as zombies or low-level skeletons, just to motivate the other mercs not to fall in the first place.

 

[S'mon]

Last time my bad guys were in a wooden fort, the PCs sneaked up to it in the night and started a fire against the wall, then when the inhabitants came out they attacked and broke in. It helped that it was the dry season in a savannah type climate, ie very dry.

 

[foreverdarkwoods]

Well, the wall is supposed to be pretty much erected in a hurry, so there are still some trees around the palisade (not many, but a few). Aside from that, the main spellcaster in the party is a warmage and thus has a very limited selection of spells (pretty much no utility spells at all, only damaging ones). At present, none of the characters can fly.

I had considered some form of undead troll or ogre bursting out of the gates, and I had also considered healers. Mounted undead also seems more and more like a good idea the more I'm thinking about it. Something like skeletal knights with lances maybe.

The trees might help a bit with the sneaking, but there are some other things to consider. The necromancers and some of the mercs are elves, and as such they have low light vision. The skeletons can see perfectly fine in the dark I believe, though hide from undead is a simple low level cleric spell which would cancel the second parameter out.

Anyway, thanks for all the tips so far. I had already considered fire, but mounted undead knights are worse out in the open than inside the fort, so maybe smoking them out won't be the best idea.

 

[Grogg of the North]

A couple of thoughts:

Clear all the trees away from the wall. Leave stumps behind if you want, but the first thing I'd do if I had to erect a defensible wall would be to get rid of everything that would allow my opponents to sneak up on me. If a warmage is going to be shooting fireballs into my fort, I want him out in the open where my archers can make him pay for it. At night my guards would be the ones with low-light vision or darkvision. Assuming you clear back just enough trees for the darkvision to hit the forest (~60 ft) that's plenty for an elf with a torch to see the forest too.

Traps. If you clear the area outside the palisade, litter it with traps. Some that just make noise, some that are just annoying and some that are deadly. Have a safe route that the mercenaries take when they forage, go to town, whatever. If the PCs are patient, maybe they can pick out the right route to take from watching the guards. Otherwise, your ninja gets to show off his trap abilities.

Alarms. Either the magical version scattered about the fort and cave entrance or things like bells, gongs, and horns. Something loud that would reverberate down the cave and let the necromancers know something is going on and give them time to prepare. Make sure that at least one mercenary in a group has a horn or something to sound the alarm with. Heck, the necromancers could order their minions on guard to just sound the alarm instead of fight if someone approaches.

Have the mercenaries make friends. Maybe they bribed/helped/rescued a local ranger/druid grove/barbarian tribe. These friends provide them information about what's going on in the forest near the fort or may even come to their aid in battle. And then your PCs get to quote LotR. "They have a cave troll!"

Remember that if anyone attacks, Hide From Undead is ended for everyone. So if they start fighting mercenaries, they may suddenly find themselves fighting undead reinforcements. If all the necromancers have are skeletons, they don't get a save versus HFU. Is it reasonable for these necromancers to have some ghouls or wights as well?

Have a backup plan / escape route. If the battle is going poorly, I doubt the mercenaries are being paid well enough for them to throw away their lives. They can, and probably would, flee or surrender. Unless the PCs have a bad reputation or something like that. Likewise, the necromancers probably have some sort of goal that they want to accomplish. If the battle is going against them, safety is only a teleport away. This could force the PCs to decide who to pursue: the mercenaries that may have fled to the woods or try to track down the casters themselves from whatever notes or doodads they left behind.

Finally, I'd HIGHLY recommend against giving the PCs some NPC helpers. Either they are going to treat them like a bazooka, used to solve a problem in the most bloody and expedient manner possible and then discarded, or complain about how they are not powerful enough to really help them. Also, the NPCs will steal the spot light a little. The story should be about how the PCs bravely stormed the fort. Not how they sent Bob the Fighter to knock out the guards and open the gate for them.

 

[LostSoul]

My quick thoughts:

1. Build a mantlet and approach it under cover.

2. Use a scroll of dimension door to get in.

3. Wait them out. Build your own wall outside and hang out there until they starve to death. (Unlikely, they probably have create food and water.)

4. Summon something to destroy the wall (fire elemental, perhaps).

5. Undermine.

As for enemies:

Archers who can fire through the wall. Incorporeal undead that can pass through the wall and skirmish. Spellcasters that can summon monsters on the other side of the wall. Someone who can cast dimension door twice. Slick the wall with some kind of fire-retardant material (I think they used to use leather).

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Perhaps you'd benefit from giving the Necromancer side some incorporeal undead that can simply pass thru the wall, attack, then retreat when injured and get healed up my the necromancers to fight round 2. (EDIT: I missed that [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] had already made this recommendation, Ninja'd.)
Sneaking in might be difficult for them to do when the guards don't ever need to sleep and have Darkvision.

 

[GMMichael]

"The party have at this point been tasked with removing an enclave of necromancers, a few mercenaries they've hired and some of their undead from an encampment they've made in a cave in the mountains."

That's a steamroll task. Capturing the necromancers is less of a steamroll task. Convincing the necromancers to help on another task is even less steamroller.

You could just throw a fly in the ointment: one of the necromancers is a mind-controlled VIP, who must not be touched. Or one of the skeletons is a holy set-o-bones, and breaking it is going to cost thousands (in legal fees alone).

 

[foreverdarkwoods]

Well, to be more specific the goal is an item which the necromancers possess rather than the necromancers themselves, but since the party have been so steamroll happy up until this point I'm not expecting them to just sneak inside (you got to know your players). The campaign is also very combat-heavy at this point and that's not likely to change since everyone seems pretty happy with it being that way (sometimes, really combat heavy campaigns can be refreshing). I'd like to put some twists on the the combat however, so by "not just just steamrolling it", I'd mean posing some actual challenge to them which would force them to get more creative than just charging everything and hoping not to die. Hence the idea of a wall came to be.

I like the idea of using spectrals, which I will probably do. I don't know what to use at this point though. Probably weak ghosts, as things like spectres, shadows or wraiths don't really make sense.

I should also try to figure out how to make undead that are of the stupider variety (as intelligent undead don't really make sense here) ride mindless mounts. Mindless undead make terrible riders as they have no skills (and how the hell does a mindless skeletal knight control a mindless skeletal warhorse?), but I will probably figure something out. Maybe have a necromancer ride out with them and control them or control them from the wall.

 

[foreverdarkwoods]

EDIT: Double post due to glitch..