Attacking a walled structure - any experience?

[Grogg of the North]

I should also try to figure out how to make undead that are of the stupider variety (as intelligent undead don't really make sense here) ride mindless mounts. Mindless undead make terrible riders as they have no skills (and how the hell does a mindless skeletal knight control a mindless skeletal warhorse?), but I will probably figure something out. Maybe have a necromancer ride out with them and control them or control them from the wall.

What about a death knight from MM2 as the protector of the necromancers? They typically ride Nightmare mounts.

Another option would be a Skeletal Champion from Pathfinder. They're skeletons that retain their intelligence.

Libris Mortis has rules on using Skeletal Mounts. IIRC, it's just a small penalty to your ride check.

 

[udalrich]

There are several good ideas above. The scenario that you give is still focused on the steamroller approach (kill everything but it's hard to get to where you can kill). Some things you might want to consider for the future include:

The way is blocked by intelligent monsters that can easily defeat the party, who must talk, sneak or otherwise finesse their way around them. There is nothing that says a party of 5 level 8 characters cannot meet 8 CR 12 monsters. Be sure that there is some way for them to realize that this is not an encounter where "kill everything" is a viable strategy.

They need to get information that the foe knows. If they kill him, the information is lost, so they need to disable him and then extract the information.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

How about including innocents engaged in the combat or battlefield against their will?

A moat filled with children, enchanted villagers or those bullied or frightened into service? When the person shooting an arrow at you in somebody you're trying to save, "Kill them all" isn't really a viable option. Just because they're Necromancers doesn't mean their limited to the Necromancy school, why not have children at the top of the wall throwing rocks down because they've been Charmed or Dominated? The Skeletal archers are standing behind the human shields, firing over their shoulders.

 

[Stormonu]

Don't just put archers up on the walls, they've got enough nearby wood to make ballistas and catapults to defend the thing.

And why just wood for the walls? These guys are necromancers. Consider mammoth bones or other corpses (ala 300) composing the defensive wall. Then animate it (Let's see the cleric turn that...).

As others have mentioned, be aware that flight will likely be in the party's arsenal. Simple roofs should be enough to thwart entry by flight.

 

[Empirate]

Good necromancer options in a situation like this (how high level are your baddies anyway?):

1. Lord of the Uttercold feat, to go with cold-substituted Fireballs. Skeleton (and other cold-immune undead) minions are actually healed by this, so the necromancers can just shoot into the melee.

2. Desecrate the whole place (make sure there's an evil altar in place, too), to make undead better and turning harder. Your necromancers should probably include a mix of arcane and divine casters, or go Dread Necromancer. Also opens up the option of bolstering the Undead before the fight, or right when it starts.

3. The necromancer leader could be high enough in level to use Magic Jar. Devastating tactic. Possess a PC, turn him onto his comrades, when the PCs have 'dealt' with the threat, possess another PC...

4. Master of Shrouds PrC available for the baddies --> lots of undead Shadows/Wraiths/more incorporeal stuff to go around. At 8th level, these are still very nasty, especially for a party that relies on melee a lot.

5. Debuff, debuff, debuff. Split Rays of Enfeeblement are only 3rd level. Ray of Exhaustion is 3rd level as well. Fell Weaken Magic Missiles are only 2nd level, as is Kelgore's Grave Mist. All of these pretty much take the fight out of a Barbarian. And they stack nicely, too...

6. Fear effects can really mix it up. The Fear spell will probably scatter half the party in panicked flight (dropping their weapons along the way), while the rest of the party remains to fight an outgunned battle.


I could go on, but the point is: enemy spellcasters are nasty, nasty, nasty, and should always to played to their strengths. Should be a memorable encounter!

 

[radja]

How about including innocents engaged in the combat or battlefield against their will?

A moat filled with children, enchanted villagers or those bullied or frightened into service? When the person shooting an arrow at you in somebody you're trying to save, "Kill them all" isn't really a viable option. Just because they're Necromancers doesn't mean their limited to the Necromancy school, why not have children at the top of the wall throwing rocks down because they've been Charmed or Dominated? The Skeletal archers are standing behind the human shields, firing over their shoulders.

are the necromancers high enough for magic jar?

PCs: eew! the evil necromancers are keeping kids with locked collars tied on the wall!
PCs: hmm.. weird.. one of those kids stopped cowering, and is looking at us.
kids possessed with magic jar: *casts fireball*

as an added bonus, you can use a different kid to possess each round, whether it survives or not.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I think there's a Dragon Magazine template for a Living Wall, an undead type monster that looks like a normal wall at first, but is really a mass of bodies. It pulls opponents in and grows the wall longer.

Dragon Mag. 343, p.50

"The wall's not burning. What th..!! It's grabbing meeeee....."

 

[foreverdarkwoods]

A lot of interesting ideas in this thread, so thanks guys. It's a shame I won't be able to use everything, since a lot of it makes up for very interesting encounters. Human shields won't really work story-wise, but I am not going to reveal the details since there's a chance, however small, that one of my players comes across this topic and I don't really want to spoil too much if that's the case (so I'm a bit restrictive on giving out too much info).

I'm pretty much set on my original idea of using mounted undead at this point, and I have created some special skeletons with intelligence 3 (meaning I can put a few points in ride) and a few feats which should allow them to ride effectively.

Regarding spectrals, weak ghosts should do the trick I believe (or stronger if I want to have just 1 or so).

I've considered using the necromancers as pure summoners, "healers" and debuffers, and make up for the lack of damaging spells through the use of some spellstiched undead which I can put on the wall. Most of the spellcasters I've put against them at this point have been nukers, so having something that isn't a nuker in any way should spice up the encounter a bit (and there's plenty of things that can do damage already).

Regarding magic jar, I'm wondering if this tactic isn't going to be a bit too devastating. If the orc barbarian gets possessed he can easily kill the rest of the party if he uses all he's got, especially with cavalry around to help. Trying to keep it somewhat winnable here, which is always a challenge since I roll openly.

Regarding death knights, I looked them up and decided not to use them. Partly because they fit in badly with the story, and partly because they feel like they're slightly too hardcore if I'm to have more than just one. I decided to make the leader of the skeletal knights into a dark elf instead.

Regarding desecrated ground, I'm really considering that idea. Maybe have something like a crystal that gives turning resistance to undead within a certain radius from it, and that will have to be broken in order to bypass this.

So, what I'm considering so far is:
* A few special skeletons with int 3, mounted combat and ride-by attack feats and some turning resistance mounted on skeletal heavy warhorses. Skeletons wielding lances and both skeletons and warhorses heavily armoured.
* Skeleton archers on top of the walls. Undecided how many, but these are weak as hell and turning them easily destroys them.
* 1 or 2 spellstiched undead of some type. Maybe mummies or ghasts.
* 2 weaker casters and 1 stronger one, dark elves. Weaker ones are probably going to be clerics while the stronger one will probably be a wizard or a sorcerer.
* 12 mercs all in all, half have reach weapons, all have crossbows they can use instead of their melee weapons. Level 4 warriors split between dark elves and half-drow (yeah, they actually have darkvision and not low-light).
* 1 mercenary leader. PC-classed dark elf (probably a fighter). Rides out with mounted skeletons on a nightmare.
* Spectrals, type and amount still undecided.
* Something made specifically to watch the inside of the cave and which will not leave it to join the fight. Has to be appropriately mindless. Considering 1 or 2 flesh golems.
* Some worker zombies, but these will not join the combat in any meaningful way except maybe soak up turnings.
* Maybe some fighter zombies that are little more than an annoyance or just there to soak up turnings, and which mostly exist for story reasons.
* 1 dark elf rogue with some magical gear. Leads the archers.
* 1 crystal or altar somewhere that grants turning resistance to all undead within a certain radius of it until destroyed.

 

[radja]

you may want to give your mercs the improved bull rush feat. even low level mercs have a decent chance of pushing a high level opponents. Oh how I laughed when the rogue (he was 12th lvl) in the party I DM'ed was quite confident against 3 lvl 3 guards, who couldn't hit him while climbing. Ofcourse... once he got to the top, he was quickly bullrushed back down. Rogue did not like this, and since he was using a rope of climbing he insisted on a reflex save to grab it. He succeeded. The third guard then cut the rope. The rogue plummeted to his death holding the fraying end of his rope of climbing. Bested by 3 lvl 3 NPCs with improved bullrush.

 

[foreverdarkwoods]

Well, the PCs made it in case anyone is interested. Here's what they did:

1. The ranger and the ninja scouted the area, the ninja mapping out all the sonic traps while using his ki powers to remain undetected. They didn't trigger any of them on the later approach.
2. They used a Deck of Illusions to create a diversion. This lured the cavalry out to face the illusions, among them an Iron Golem. The death knight realizes foul play quickly, but the rest of the cavalry is basically mindless and as such can't make that type of judgement very easily.
3. They buffed themselves up and made themselves invisible.
4. They managed to scale the wall using a grappling hook, while still invisible. Orc barbarian has gauntlets that allows him to spider climb if using both hands.
5. While past the wall, the invisible party positions themselves in key positions in the camp.
6. The party breaks the invisibility, summons demons and starts attacking the base from within. The cleric manages to turn most undead, destroying quite a few. The Ninja manages to take out 2 of the three necromancers early. The insanely buffed orc barbarian goes apeshit on the mercenaries and kills quite a lot of them. The mercenaries return the favour, and he's on the verge of dying the whole battle, only surviving because the cleric constantly heals him when he isn't turning.
7. Very quickly, it starts to become apparent that the battle isn't going the way of the necromancers.
8. When the warmage manages to blast the death knight's flying nightmare mount out of the sky with energy-substituted scorching rays and about 60% of the mercenaries and 80% of the undead are dead, the remaining foes surrender.
9. Party scores good experience and loot.