Attacks against multiple targets

[Novem5er]

Fair enough... we wont go there.

But what does this mean?!

"Having maximized dice also helps out when you have multitarget attacks. You'll roll an attack roll against each target, so maximized dice keep you from needing to roll a bunch of dice over and over -- you can just write your crit damage on your character sheet for quick reference."

It must be late because I've retyped this next sentence like 5 times now, trying to find a better way to express myself...

The author is saying that maxing the crit damage dice will minimize the amount of dice rolling against multiple targets. How is this the case if some targets may be affected by a crit and others are not?

If there are 5 targets, but 1 of them is hit by a crit, you're only avoiding 1 dice roll out of 5. In fact, you would be rolling 5 dice to hit, plus 4 dice for damage, plus a maxed crit. Wow, big time saver!!

With a 1 attack applied against the whole group, on a crit, you are rolling 1 die... the attack! 1 die versus 9? It only makes sense that the maxed crit would save dice rolls if a single attack was applied to a group...

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

What do you make of it? Will a wizard that fireballs a bunch of goblins roll a separate attack against all of them?

Also, I'm not sure how the maximized damage is really affecting the number of dice rolled... after all crits happen only 5% ot the time... or am I missing something?

This snippet makes sense only if you treat attacks as either targeted or area effects.

An area effect, like fireball, would get one attack roll. If you get a Nat 20, you crit and maximize the damage of the fireball. Assuming that fireball is still a 'REF save for half damage, then some of the targets may have a high enough REF save to take only half damage, but its half the maximized results.

A targeted effect, like Scorching ray, you could get one attack roll per targeted effect. So a 3e 11th level mage has three Rays and gets three attack rolls. If any of these rolls are a Nat 20, the new crit system saves time as you simply apply the max damage and move on.

Its an elegant system, but misses the table punch of the 3e version, unless they have more 4e special powers triggered on a successful crit... but that conversation is being had over in the other thread

 

[Incenjucar]

There's been a LOT of clumsy English in the previews, I really do suggest people just relax about it, and hope that the books themselves are clearer than the quick jottings.

Anyways, now that we know that objects can increase crit damage and the like... I wonder what kind of zany orbs and books we'll see... Part of me wants to see a Vorpal Orb.

 

[Wolfspider]

Anyways, now that we know that objects can increase crit damage and the like... I wonder what kind of zany orbs and books we'll see... Part of me wants to see a Vorpal Orb.

 

[JohnSnow]

I utterly recant my earlier guess. I'm not saying those abilities won't exist, but that's not what this is addressing, as you point out.

Saying that "you make an attack roll against each target" is NOT the same as saying "you make a separate attack roll against each target." It could, and I think probably does, mean "the same attack roll affects each and every target."

So this is, in my mind, precisely referencing the fireball situation. When you crit, you know how much damage your fireball does to every target.

EDIT: I dunno...now I'm waffling...need...more...information.

Okay, I found my more information. I submit the following power from Book of Nine Swords.

Steel Wind
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: Two creatures

You swing your weapon in a broad, deadly arc, striking two foes with a single, mighty blow.

Through a combination of sheer power and unmatched talent, you make an attack that injures multiple opponents. As you initiate this strike, you make two melee attacks, each against a different foe that you threaten. Resolve each attack separately.

That would be a good example of a multi-target power. And it's even 1st-level.

Back to my original theory. That original line is specifically referencing powers like this which target multiple opponents, but are not area attacks.

 

[Sitara]

Actually, sAGA edition holds the answer.

basically all characters have a sinlge attack. Area attacks (such as fireball, a force power, or the whirwind attack feat) are all handled by a single attack roll vs the defence of all targets.

However, the dual weapon mastery I-III, multiattack, double attack and triple attack feats allow a character to make multiple attack rolls against different targets; it is THOSE attacks the article was referring to.

it should be noted all these extra attacks are at a significant penalty in saga. (-5 each, eoughly0

 

[DreamChaser]

As the initial reverence was speaking of how the new multitarget attack systems speeds things up, the logical conclusion (until more information is provided) is that Logan (Wizards) mistyped and intended to say:

Having maximized dice also helps out when you have multitarget attacks. You'll roll one attack roll against all targets, so maximized dice keep you from needing to roll a bunch of dice over and over -- you can just write your crit damage on your character sheet for quick reference.

emphasis mine.

Otherwise, as has been pointed out this would not be any faster.

It also defeats the major point of switching to defenses rather than saves. If I cast sleep against a group, I would not be speeding things up i had to roll separately against mook A, B, C, D, and E. Saves accomplish this same (lack of) speed without a change.

Now, admitedly, I could roll a 2 or 3 on tha one roll which would suck but since magic is less of a finite resource in 4e that is less crippling.


Of course, this is just speculation. Logan could have meant exactly what he wrote in which case, I see two options: there is something about the system that still makes multiple rolls faster or he was wrong and it isn't faster.

DC

 

[IceFractal]

Incidentally, the fact that multi-target attacks are common enough to warrant speeding up, whether or not that includes all AoEs, gives me another reason to be pissed off about the apparent removal of summoning:

"Summoned creatures monopolize the game! You'd be rolling three attacks to everyone else's one - that's unfair! Anyway, now I'm going to use Sweeping Dragon Strike on seven people - can I borrow some more d20s?"

 

[ZappoHisbane]

"Summoned creatures monopolize the game! You'd be rolling three attacks to everyone else's one - that's unfair! Anyway, now I'm going to use Sweeping Dragon Strike on seven people - can I borrow some more d20s?"

I don't think the issue was so much that you'd have more attacks than everyone else. It was that you'd be controlling that many more 'characters' than everyone else. Every round you would have to make decisions for each creatures movements, attacks, special abilities, etc. Not to mention the flexibility that being able to summon a variety of creatures gives you. I had a crapload of fun as a summoner at one point, but I'm not sure everyone else at the table shared my enthusiasm. I know I wasn't all that enthusiastic when in a different campaign it seemed every problem could be solved by 3-4 large or huge earth elementals (I wasn't the summoner that time).

There's nothing to suggest that multitarget attacks are any more or less common than they have been before. However, since we know that area effect spells like fireball can crit... well I for one am quite happy that I don't have to count out all the dice that would have meant with the old method.

 

[IceFractal]

Well sure, summoning in 3.5 has issues. One is that the primary summoner is a Druid - it's not a good idea to have the summoner also be the one with an animal companion and who's engaging in melee themselves. Plus, animals are not ideal summons, often having multiple attacks. And in melee at least, summons were strong enough to put the Fighter to shame.

But that doesn't mean summoning can't be made much faster-running and more balanced. Since the summon spells already use a list of creatures, it's extremely easy to fix - just change what's on the list. For instance:
[sblock=Summoning made Easy]Three types of summoning spells:
1) Summon one strong creature (requires Concentration).
2) Summon 2-4 minion creatures.
3) Summon a horde of weak creatures (treat as a Swarm/Mob).

For strong creatures, they can be approximately as strong as character of that level, with some tactical options, since the summoner gives up their own actions to control it.

For minion creatures, they should be weaker than a character (obviously), have a single simple purpose (melee attacker, ranged attacker, blocker, ...), not be so large/slow that they need complex positioning, and have only one attack/round with no secondary effects. Also, low HP/high defense so there's less HP tracking.

To speed things up, don't use templated creatures! Have the summoned creatures usable straight from the MM. And the list could be trimmed down to half or less if you get rid of alignment-based summons.
[/sblock]