Augment Healing and Vigor

[Gaiden]

It seems that augment healing should work for the vigor line of spells.

However, this gets very powerful with the higher level spells. Consider Vigor, Mass Lesser. Each target would heal 7 hp's/round for 25 rounds.

Do I have this right?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Augment Healing states that you add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell you cast.

Lesser Vigor doesn't actually heal any damage, though; it just provides Fast Healing.

So if anything, it would cure 2 points of damage upon casting, and then provide its normal Fast Healing benefit.

Alternatively, if adding two to nothing is not the same as adding two to zero, then Augment Healing simply has no effect in conjunction with Lesser Vigor.

(When Complete Divine first came out, Andrew Finch from WotC (Development Manager, RPG R&D at the time) said they were considering changing the Vigor spells to Transmutation in the errata... but apparently that never happened.)

-Hyp.

 

[Gaiden]

Lesser Vigor doesn't actually heal any damage, though; it just provides Fast Healing.

...The subject heals 1 hit point per round...

I am thinking you are making an argument over semantics. The spell heals, plain and simple - it is in the text of the spell. The better question and what I was alluding to was should the benefits of the feat apply everytime the spell functions: 1x/round or per casting 1x/spell. The wording of Augment Healing leaves room for interpretation. The part:

Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed

woud suggest that it functions per healing affect. However, the

...by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast

might suggest only on a per casting basis. I am inclined to lean towards the former interpretation as the latter quote would not exclude it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am thinking you are making an argument over semantics.

Yes, I am, absolutely.

The spell heals, plain and simple - it is in the text of the spell.

No, it isn't. The text of the spell states that it grants the subject the fast healing ability. The subject then heals by himself.

If someone Shapechanges into a creature with Fast Healing 5 [Su], the Shapechange spell is not healing them 5 points each round. The Fast Healing ability is healing them. Shapechange just provided access to Fast Healing.

That's what Vigor does, per the text of the spell.

Even if you assume that Vigor is actually healing, the Augment feat adds, as you note, to the amount healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast.

What is the amount healed by a Lesser Vigor spell? 15, assuming CL 5 or better. What is the amount healed by an Augmented Lesser Vigor spell? 15 + spell level, for a total of 16.

The original response from Andrew Finch:
"The Vigor spell line grants the recipient of the spell the Fast Healing ability, but does not in fact heal the target despite being a Conjuration (Healing) spell. The feat Augmented Healing increases the amount that a caster heals, which the caster is not doing with any of these spells.

It may be that this line of spell should be Transmutation and not Conjuration (Healing). This will be added to the items to be reviewed for errata."

-Hyp.

 

[Gaiden]

The text of the spell states that it grants the subject the fast healing ability. The subject then heals by himself.

The point of suggesting your argument was one of semantics was to allude to the irrelevance of the distinction between saying that the {spell grants fast healing and the fast healing heals you} and {the spell grants fast healing meaning the spell heals you on a per round basis}. No matter how you cut it up, the spell is healing you - it is a Conjuration [Healing] spell! Whether you say that the effect of fast healing is healing you or the spell is healing you - you are saying the same thing.

If someone Shapechanges into a creature with Fast Healing 5 [Su], the Shapechange spell is not healing them 5 points each round. The Fast Healing ability is healing them. Shapechange just provided access to Fast Healing.

That's what Vigor does, per the text of the spell.

You are right, shapechanging is not healing them. In fact, this gets to the fundamental point I am making - the effect of shapechange is to change your form and is a transmutation effect - which incidentally would make augment healing ineffective anyway. The effect of vigor is to heal you via fast healing. If the fast healing was intended to not be a magical healing effect of the spell - which, again the text clearly states that it is - the spell ought not to have been in the conjuration (healing) school.

Andrew Finch is directly contradicting the text of the spell saying that it is not healing and the fact that the spell was not changed to a transmutation effect speaks the loudest to me.

Hyp, I would agree with you 100% if I was interpreting the spell to change you in some way distinct from the magic of the spell. What do I mean - if the spell induced a transformation - i.e. transmutation - and then the result of that change caused healing like with shapechange I would be on your side. However, the stat block is distinctly different from that interpretation.

No matter if I've managed to convince you or not, for a moment concede the argument to me and argue for or against allowing the benefits of the feat to apply on a per round or per casting basis.

If the feat only applied on a per casting basis - then I would think the recipient would gain the benefits of the boost immediately upon casting - so 6 points with a Vigor, mass lesser and then 1 point every round thereafter.

However, as you suggest Hyp, there is no initial healing. So I would be inclined to not have the spell heal anything to begin with - it is +2/level of the spell to the damage healed. In the case of Vigor - it heals damage every round.

I really want to say that the most accurate interpretation is 7 hp's/round with the aforementioned spell. Certainly this is a pretty big loophole and may require houseruling but that is another issue.

 

[Pinotage]

It seems that augment healing should work for the vigor line of spells.

However, this gets very powerful with the higher level spells. Consider Vigor, Mass Lesser. Each target would heal 7 hp's/round for 25 rounds.

Do I have this right?

If you consider Vigor to be healing, I'd simply add the Augment Healing effect to the number of rounds the spell lasts. A 5th level caster casting Mass Lesser Vigor would enable fast healing 1 for 15 rounds, altogether 15 hp healed. With Augement Healing, it'd be fast healing 1 for 21 rounds (spell level*2 for Augment Healing added).

Pinotage

 

[CrazyDrake]

it is not a conjuration[healing] spell. look at the spell 'cure light wounds' in the PHB, page 215. the first line of the block says 'conjuration[healing]'. that means the spell is of the conjuration school and the healing subschool. do the various vigor spells include such a label? no. therefore, they are not spells of the healing subschool, and do not receive the benifits of augment healing.
it also means that undead are not harmed by the spell, that it works in the Mournland (in the Ebberon campaign setting), and a number of other important details.

 

[Joker]

it is not a conjuration[healing] spell. look at the spell 'cure light wounds' in the PHB, page 215. the first line of the block says 'conjuration[healing]'. that means the spell is of the conjuration school and the healing subschool. do the various vigor spells include such a label? no. therefore, they are not spells of the healing subschool, and do not receive the benifits of augment healing.
it also means that undead are not harmed by the spell, that it works in the Mournland (in the Ebberon campaign setting), and a number of other important details.

Badabing Badaboom.

At least that's what I was gonna say until I looked it up and the various Vigor spells do have the Conjuration (Healing) label.

I wanted to say something more insightful but my brain died.

Tata.

 

[Gaiden]

it is not a conjuration[healing] spell. look at the spell 'cure light wounds' in the PHB, page 215. the first line of the block says 'conjuration[healing]'. that means the spell is of the conjuration school and the healing subschool. do the various vigor spells include such a label? no. therefore, they are not spells of the healing subschool, and do not receive the benifits of augment healing.
it also means that undead are not harmed by the spell, that it works in the Mournland (in the Ebberon campaign setting), and a number of other important details.

.....

 

[Hypersmurf]

No matter how you cut it up, the spell is healing you - it is a Conjuration [Healing] spell! Whether you say that the effect of fast healing is healing you or the spell is healing you - you are saying the same thing.

I don't agree.

If I cast Remove Blindness on you - or Remove Disease, or Remove Paralysis - and I have Augment Healing, does it heal an extra two or three hit points, since they're all Conjuration [Healing] spells?

Conjuration [Healing] doesn't automatically mean that the spell heals you. Cure Light Wounds heals you. Remove Paralysis removes a condition. Vigor grants an ability.

-Hyp.