Augment Healing + Mass Lesser Vigor

[jaelis]

Also, to be clear, I wasn't trying to make an analogy to DR or incorporeality. I was simply citing them as other examples of special abilities. I can say a horse is a mammal, like a dog or a mouse, without making an analogy between horses, dogs, and mice.

And I'm interpreting your response as a comment about the general nature of "special abilities" as well.

 

[moritheil]

We're getting close to the issue, at last!

But if you cast a spell that gives you Damage Reduction, that is a direct Damage Reduction spell. If there were a feat that said "If you cast a spell that increases your damage reduction, add +1 to the damage reduction you receive", then that feat would apply to the Damage Reduction spell. It's quite similar to a spell that gives you Fast Healing. Damage Reduction, Incorporeality, and Fast Healing are all part and parcel of something else. They are not themselves independent intervening things.

But in the case of, say, stoneskin, the spell does not itself reduce damage when the target gets hit - it is the damage reduction that is reducing damage. That doesn't mean it's wrong to say, "Good thing he had that stoneskin up, or he would have been killed." But it does mean that when I ask, "what is reducing damage," the correct answer is "damage reduction."

And in this case the spell does not heal you - it is the fast healing that heals you.

I am under no illusions about your ability to stubbornly resist this and other explanations, but can you at least see where the other point of view is coming from? If you accept that the special quality or special ability is an agency, then it naturally follows that the lesser vigor spell is not directly healing you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm going to throw the Amulet of Retributive Healing into the mix - MIC, p69.

Let's say the cleric is on 50/60 hit points.

The cleric activates the amulet, and casts Vigor on his companion. How many hit points does the cleric heal this round? Next round?

Situation 1: The companion is on 46/50 hit points, so this round he fast heals 2 points, and next round he fast heals 2 points.

Situation 2: The companion is on 48/50 hit points, so this round he fast heals 2 points, and next round he heals nothing.

Situation 3: The companion is on full hit points, so this round he heals nothing, but before his turn next round he takes some damage, and fast heals 2 points on his turn.

Situation 4: The companion is down a few hit points, but he already has Fast Healing 5 from another source. He fast heals 5 hit points each round.

Bear in mind that Vigor is an effect the cleric used before the end of his turn, but no healing occurs until the target's turn in any event.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Haha very funny.

Funny does not preclude correct.

It's not a thing in the game. It's a page in a book or a set of text on a URL, but for purposes of the game it's not a person place or thing. Abilities are not things. I have the ability to write fast, but that is not a thing (writing is a verb, not a noun). My fingers are things, and the ink I use to write is a thing and the paper I write on is a thing, but the act of writing itself is not a thing. It's an action.

Yes, it is a thing in the game, just like an Enhancement bonus is a thing.

"What? I get a +2 to attack rolls? Why, am I flanking with someone? Can you point to what is giving me a +2 to attack?"

Seriously, special abilities like and "Fast Healing" are real. Same with conditions like "Fatigue". You can't point to it except in the glossary, but it's going to affect your character anyway.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jhaelen]

There's a difference between a creature with a Con score of 0, and a creature without a Con score.

There's a difference between a character with a caster level of 0, and a character who has no caster level.

There's a difference between a spell that heals 0 damage, and a spell that does not heal damage.

There's no difference between a creature with natural armor 0 and no natural armor.

Therefore:

All conjuration (healing) spells will heal the bonus hp, regardless if the spell in question actually heals hp by its own or not.

 

[MithrasRahl]

I feel like I've unleashed some sort of monster with this thread

 

[eamon]

There's no difference between a creature with natural armor 0 and no natural armor.

Some quantities behave differently when they're absent than when they're 0. Indeed, for natural amour, there's no difference between absence of the armor or having no natural armor bonus. That analogy isn't very different from Hyp's analogy to a constitution score. But let's take it further: there's certainly no difference between the absence of an enhancement bonus to natural armor and 0 enhancement bonus to natural armor. Similarly, even though there may be a difference between absence of a constitution score and 0 constitution, I can't think of a difference between absence of constitution damage and 0 constitution damage.

By extension, I fail to see the difference between the absence of hitpoint damage and 0 hitpoint damage, and see even less difference between the absence of the curing of hitpoint damage and curing 0 hitpoint damage. Such a difference does not exist in any circumstances - except if that difference is introduced by means of this poorly described feat.

 

[Slaved]

Ok, fair enough, I can accept that. What I still don't understand is your line of logic that doesn't include any mention of Conjuration [Healing], despite it being a rather pretty important part of the Augment Healing description.

???

Augment Healing does not interact with the Vigor spells at all since the Vigor spells do not heal damage. Instead the Vigor spells give the target the Fast Healing ability.

The feat says to add 2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast. It does not say that the feat heals 2 points of damage per spell level of the spell.

The Vigor spells do not heal damage so there is nothing to add 2 to.

!!!

Add +2 points per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast.

The subject gains Fast Healing 1

The Vigor spells do not heal damage so adding +2 per spell level to -- is ineffective.

 

[akbearfoot]

I don't think that the vigor spells directly heal a person. However I do think that Augment Healing as written is supposed to add healing to any Conjuration (healing) spell.


Even if a spell doesen't normally heal hitpoint damage, Augment healing turns it into a spell that heals 0 +2/SL. I cast a spell thats conjuration (healing), Now I ask how much damage it heals...0, ok +2 per spell level and when the spell is applied to the target the effects take place.


However it is clear from the description in the vigor spells that they do not function just like normal fast healing...Normal fast healing stops when you hit -1 hitpoints, however the version the spell gives automatically stabilizes you. That sorta supports that says its the spells magic healing you.


Also, does anyone actually think it is overpowered for a cleric's spells to heal small ammounts of damage? I mean, if they actually memorized lesser restoration then thats 1 less sound burst...Or if they memorized any of the vigor spells, that is more slots that they are devoting to healing and effectively losing more offensive capabilities. I'd prefer this to persistent DMM cheeze anyday.



Also, I believe the original versions of the vigor line from Masters of the wild didn't say anything about fast healing. They just said 'heals x pts per round. I honestly think they just rephrased the vigor line to mechanically match the fast healing ability, probably so that creatures that already had the fast healing ability couldnt stack it...That could be a tad abusive.


Also it's really annoying to think that an undead can have this positive energy spell cast on them and they would actually BENEFIT from the positive energy coursing through their bodies. I know it's not RAW, but I would allow this spell to temporarily nullify an undead creatures natural fast healing ability if they failed a save against it. Or to cause damage each round at the normal rate. That's where I draw the distinction between 'granting fast healing' and 'positive energy flowing through your body that enables you to heal fast'

 

[Nifft]

Also, does anyone actually think it is overpowered for a cleric's spells to heal small ammounts of damage?

IMHO this is a bad way to ask this question, because Clerics are already one of the two strongest classes in the game. They don't need anything else.

On the other hand, this mostly just makes life slightly easier for everyone else in the party.

I'd allow it to work in my game... but that has nothing to do with what the rules actually say.

Cheers, -- N