Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)

[Angcuru]

A good ruling. I'd like to point out that Wish can be used to get an 8th-level spell, not multiple spells.

I dunno. I'm probably the only one here who might disagree on this. I don't find it unreasonable to "pay" 5000 XP to be "restored to full strength".

Throw Time Stop out of the picture for a moment. If TS didn't exist, and you had a wizard Wish to be restored to full strength (assume correctly worded), you seriously wouldn't consider that a fair wish?

True, there isn't any spell, regardless of 8th level, that accomplishes this. It has the possibility of combining Restoration, Heal (3e version), and some kind of insta-rest spell. However, does that seem overpowered for a "reality altering" spell that costs 5000 XP?

I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing something others can see. Later. [/QUOTE]

Well, you can use wish to cast a different spell, but wishing to emulate the effects of a seperate spell is completely different from being able to remember a spell or two. While I don't want to see players re-loading their spells constantly I think it's still not making sense that you give up 5,000 XP and not be able to remember some spells you cast that day.

How about this, when you regain spells that you have already cast that day, you can completely restore 1d10 spell levels worth of spells to your list. I.E. You could have 1d10 levels worth of spells completely restored(0lvl counts as 1 for this). A result of 4 would mean that you can restore any of the following: all 1st and 3rd level spells; all 4th level spells; all 0, 1, and 2nd level spells, etc. A roll of 8 could restore all 3rd and 5th level spells, or all 8th level spells, etc. Epic Spell Slots can not be restored. What do you think?

As for the spell resistance vs Time Stop, yes, that is a bit of a problem. I'd HR that all combatants are allowed SR vs the spell, since they are the only ones directly affected.

And yes, this combo requires major Epic Levels, green slime. I thought it out for use by an NPC 44th Lvl spellcaster. She happens to have procured a particularly powerful and unique Robe of the Archmagi which automatically quickens her non-epic spells, so a few feats are freed up in that respect. Fortunately, she's on the side of good and is in semi-retirement, so no worries for Faerun.

 

[Pax]

Better than that 1d10 stuff, if you just want a FEW spells back ... no problem. Cast wish to emulate an 8th-level (equivalent) spell: Twinned Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer.

Poof, six levels of spell returned to you, such that no one spell exceeds 3d level.

I might even let you just go for one spell, outright, as a "jacked up" version of RME, and get 7 levels of spell, either as a couple lower-level spells or one single 7th level spell. I wouldn't even quibble, I'd let it slide as "within safe limits", no problem.

But all will never work without unwanted side effects.

 

[Anubis]

How can anyone find allowing Wish to restore all spells at all logical? It's completely contrary to what the spell description says! It says that Wish can allow spells up to Level 8, so why then would you be allowed to recall all spells of all levels, including Level 9?

By the letter of the rules, Wish can't do that, period. I would allow 8 spell levels to be restores (since it allows casting of up to a Level 8 spell), but that's it. Two Level 4 spells, one Level 8 spell, eight Level 1 spells, any combination adding up to ONLY 8.

Anything else is against the rules, meaning you'd be house ruling Wish to be far more powerful than the book says.

 

[Anubis]

As for Time Stop, Time Stop and SR simply don't mix, and the ELH suggesting otherwise is plain stupid.

Think about it with your brains, people. Time Stop effects the CASTER. It doesn't actually stop time, remember? It speeds up the caster's actions! It's like a VERY powerful version of Haste with extra limits. As such, SR makes no sense because no one else is effected by the spell. SR only applies when someone else is effected, not the caster.

I know of no other spell that has a PERSONAL range and a YOU target that allows SR and effects other people, so Time Stop is no different. Oxymoronic as it is, by the letter of the rules, Time Stop CAN'T allow SR to stop it. Remember that the ELH is not core rules, and so the core rules override anything in it.

 

[Angcuru]

How can anyone find allowing Wish to restore all spells at all logical? It's completely contrary to what the spell description says! It says that Wish can allow spells up to Level 8, so why then would you be allowed to recall all spells of all levels, including Level 9?

By the letter of the rules, Wish can't do that, period. I would allow 8 spell levels to be restores (since it allows casting of up to a Level 8 spell), but that's it. Two Level 4 spells, one Level 8 spell, eight Level 1 spells, any combination adding up to ONLY 8.

Anything else is against the rules, meaning you'd be house ruling Wish to be far more powerful than the book says.

The text states that you an duplicate up to an 8th level spell, which is entirely different from recalling some spells. Did you even READ my idea about the 1d10 restoration, or just skim over it?

In any case, the text states "You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.", which implies that you can wish for a lot more, but unless you perfectly, undeniable state specifically what you want to happen, you are in trouble.

Dude, you can interperet things the way you want, but stop being an ass, trying to force your opinions on us. It's called TROLLING.

As for Time Stop, Time Stop and SR simply don't mix, and the ELH suggesting otherwise is plain stupid.

Think about it with your brains, people. Time Stop effects the CASTER. It doesn't actually stop time, remember? It speeds up the caster's actions! It's like a VERY powerful version of Haste with extra limits. As such, SR makes no sense because no one else is effected by the spell. SR only applies when someone else is effected, not the caster.

I know of no other spell that has a PERSONAL range and a YOU target that allows SR and effects other people, so Time Stop is no different. Oxymoronic as it is, by the letter of the rules, Time Stop CAN'T allow SR to stop it. Remember that the ELH is not core rules, and so the core rules override anything in it.

Watch your mouth and calm the heck down. OK then, I just looked over the text again and you have a valid point. I actually agree with this one. Time Stop effects the caster and only the caster, so SR is non-applicable. The caster, and only the caster gets an extra 1d4+1 rounds to act as he may, and that's that.

It's just someone else's view of some rules in a game man, don't get so worked up about it.

 

[Piratecat]

Dude, you can interperet things the way you want, but stop being an ass, trying to force your opinions on us. It's called TROLLING.

People aren't asses because they disagree with one another. Please, folks - deep breaths, no insults on any side, and polite posts.

Thanks!

 

[Apok]

I would allow 8 spell levels to be restores (since it allows casting of up to a Level 8 spell), but that's it. Two Level 4 spells, one Level 8 spell, eight Level 1 spells, any combination adding up to ONLY 8.

Anything else is against the rules, meaning you'd be house ruling Wish to be far more powerful than the book says.

I like that solution. Very cool, kind of makes Wish act like a suped-up Lucubration spell. But yes, anything more than that would definitely be pushing Wish beyond it's boundaries.

 

[LokiDR]

If you want to allow wish to restore spells, take the time-based approach. This is the precedent for restoration, not X levels or spells of X level.

Wish can change the past. A person might wish to be restored to the state they were in 10 seconds ago. For 5000xp, I might let them have all spells they used in that round back, as well as undoing any damage. This assumes they weren't cheesing Time Stop of course.

 

[RigaMortus]

I can't believe you are complaning about an Epic Level spell combination (level 45 no less) is cheesey. What do you expect at those levels?

 

[Apok]

I can't believe you are complaning about an Epic Level spell combination (level 45 no less) is cheesey. What do you expect at those levels?

That's what I thought originally, though the thread seems to have veered off from that particular topic. It now seems to be about the relative powers and capabilities of Wish and Time Stop.