Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)

[LokiDR]

I can't believe you are complaning about an Epic Level spell combination (level 45 no less) is cheesey. What do you expect at those levels?

Epic can be overpowered, that's fine.

Now what happens when I am hasted (3.0) 20th level wizard. I TS, throw a bunch of spells, TS, throw a bunch of spells, and use a wish to restore to full. Three 9th level spells is well in the realm of possibility. I would call that cheesy. Building on that with epic feats just makes it cheesier (some might say Dangerously Cheesy )

More power is one thing, being able to manipulate the turn structure and spells to be able to throw a days worth of spells at your oppents once a round for 8 rounds is quite another, even at Epic levels.

 

[Artoomis]

Epic can be overpowered, that's fine.

Now what happens when I am hasted (3.0) 20th level wizard. I TS, throw a bunch of spells, TS, throw a bunch of spells, and use a wish to restore to full. Three 9th level spells is well in the realm of possibility. I would call that cheesy. Building on that with epic feats just makes it cheesier (some might say Dangerously Cheesy )

More power is one thing, being able to manipulate the turn structure and spells to be able to throw a days worth of spells at your oppents once a round for 8 rounds is quite another, even at Epic levels.

Yep - but it's only the wish that makes it out of whack.

You should be able to wish for anything - it's just that you cannot always be sure of what you'll get! In my opinion in this case it's pretty simple - reset everything to back to when the wizard had all his spells.

Elegant in it's simplicity. no?

 

[Quixon]

I can't believe you are complaning about an Epic Level spell combination (level 45 no less) is cheesey. What do you expect at those levels?

I am with RigaMortus also. Epic levels break down pretty badly after about 34th-35th. I mean come on, once people can take Miracle for a INNATE spell and cast once a round-well not much fun after that lol. Your Dm can keep banning stuff but then whats the point, you will be left with just a few options everybody has to take because everything else is so out of whack lol.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

How can anyone find allowing Wish to restore all spells at all logical? It's completely contrary to what the spell description says! <snip>

Anything else is against the rules, meaning you'd be house ruling Wish to be far more powerful than the book says.

I disagree. The Wish spell lists a variety of effects that are "safe." Meaning the DM "shouldn't" play around with the request, but more powerful requests might only be "partially completed".

What I feel is fair for a wish will differ from what you think is fair (hence this is subjective, making Wishes a frequently discussed topic). I personally think a 9th level spell that costs 5000 XP to cast should be able to restore *one* individual to *full* power. It seems to be on par with some of the listed effects, at least in my humble opinion.

As I stated earlier, I don't think the problem is with allowing such a Wish. The problem is how TS is played and can be greatly abused at higher levels.

 

[tbitonti]

Recovering spells vs casting costs

Just wondering; wishing to recover spells doesn't mean that you won't have to pay whatever casting cost is involved. Lots of spells have pretty high casting costs, will that make up some of the benefit?

On the other hand, wishing to recover spells seems to be the same as wishing for an extended time out long enough to rememorize spells. That's what, 8+ hours? That's a hugely extended TimeStop.

I am interested in what folks consider a wish can do ... the concrete examples seem somewhat limited ... so, can a wish:

Restore 1 person and their personal belongings, right now, and next to me, in the same state as they were at the beginning of the battle, except for the time an location?

Restore the party (1, 5, or 10 people) except myself, right now, and in a close circle about me, as they were at the beginning of the battle, except for the time and location?

These seem pretty standard as wishes go. How much state would be recovered?

It gets hard to be more exact -- I like the idea of the Wisdom or Intelligence test to determine the amount of deviation from the apparent intent.

On the SRD text:

"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the character's attacks and spells; however, the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells’ durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)"

That seems pretty clear to me: you can cast a spell and have it take effect within the time stop (and hence be useless, except to affect yourself), or have it leave the time stop (and hence be frozen until the time stop expires). The text doesn't (but could) distinguish instantaneous spells, so I don't see why they should be treated any different.

About the disagreements: Perhaps a restatement can diffuse this. A simple 'As written, time stop does seem to allow X, but that seems overpowered to me, so I don't allow timestop to used like that.' Otherwise, the discussion is all about the proper interpretation of the SRD text, which would require a lot more definitions and linguisitics and so forth.

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Recovering spells vs casting costs

...Restore 1 person and their personal belongings, right now, and next to me, in the same state as they were at the beginning of the battle, except for the time an location?

Restore the party (1, 5, or 10 people) except myself, right now, and in a close circle about me, as they were at the beginning of the battle, except for the time and location?...

Actually, the 3e wish spell is quite limited, except for the part about being "dangerous" when wishing for greater effects.

Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects must be cured of the same type of affliction.

So number two above is legitimate (no mention of equipment, and assuming the party has no more than one person per caster level). This is assuming only the same affliction for everyone.

Number one is not - it cannot do both health and equipment.

As far as "undoing" things (like getting back all spells):

Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event.

Or you can duplicate a wizard spell of 8th level (with some provision about prophibited scholls, etc.) or any spell of 5th level or lower.

A 3e wish is quite limited in what you can do "safely."

 

[RigaMortus]

Epic can be overpowered, that's fine.

Now what happens when I am hasted (3.0) 20th level wizard. I TS, throw a bunch of spells, TS, throw a bunch of spells, and use a wish to restore to full. Three 9th level spells is well in the realm of possibility. I would call that cheesy. Building on that with epic feats just makes it cheesier (some might say Dangerously Cheesy )

More power is one thing, being able to manipulate the turn structure and spells to be able to throw a days worth of spells at your oppents once a round for 8 rounds is quite another, even at Epic levels.

Congradulations, you just wasted all your spells for the day on one encounter.

What are you going to do about that BBEG (Epic level Wizard) that was Scrying on you (or simply Hiding at a safe distance) and now unleashes all his magic on you, just as you did?

For every "cheesy" or "overpowering" example, I can give one in return that counters yours. And we can go on like this all day, but in the end what does it accomplish? Nothing, except to go back to my original statement and say, "What do you expect at those levels?"

 

[LokiDR]

Yep - but it's only the wish that makes it out of whack.

You should be able to wish for anything - it's just that you cannot always be sure of what you'll get! In my opinion in this case it's pretty simple - reset everything to back to when the wizard had all his spells.

Elegant in it's simplicity. no?

I don't know. Being able to TS, throw spells, TS again, throw more spells can be fine, if some one can survive it. Most characters can not survive 2d4+2 spells of 7th, 8th, and 9th levels. Wish throws that even more out of whack. The fact that you can do this effectively 4 times in a round at 45th level seems less steep of curve than being able to do it once at 20th level.

 

[LokiDR]

Congradulations, you just wasted all your spells for the day on one encounter.

What are you going to do about that BBEG (Epic level Wizard) that was Scrying on you (or simply Hiding at a safe distance) and now unleashes all his magic on you, just as you did?

For every "cheesy" or "overpowering" example, I can give one in return that counters yours. And we can go on like this all day, but in the end what does it accomplish? Nothing, except to go back to my original statement and say, "What do you expect at those levels?"

I expect, if I am playing a 45th level fighting type, I have a chance of killing the wizard. It sounds like the only thing that is keeping my chance up is epic save bonuses.

Now what about the same situation at level 20. If fighter doesn't win inititive and kill the wizard (a problem with all-day buffs) the wizard should EASILY waste the fighter with all those spells.

The fact that you might not have enough spells for later does not make up for the fact that you can utterly waste the first opponent, even if they are more powerful than you. This arguement works for not changing haste, and you see where that lead.

 

[Angcuru]

On the other hand, wishing to recover spells seems to be the same as wishing for an extended time out long enough to rememorize spells. That's what, 8+ hours? That's a hugely extended TimeStop.

I disagree. If you were to wish for an 8-hour rest period wherein you could rememorize your spells, this may be the case, but it all depends on the phrasing of the wish. Your interperetation would be the result of a "I wish to create a 8-hour pocket in time wherein I am perfectly safe and untinterrupted so that I may re-memorize my spells and return to this point in time unharmed and unaffected save for the re-memorization of my (insert arcane or divine) spells." Wish.

A wish such as "I wish to have all of my (insert arcane or divine) spells restored as if I had re-memorized them, although I do not actually take the time to do so; I am simply able to cast as normal the spells I have already cast today." would but the caster back at full strength.

Although I will suggest one all-important House Rule: You cannot wish for the same effect on the same object/person twice in a single day.

I expect, if I am playing a 45th level fighting type, I have a chance of killing the wizard. It sounds like the only thing that is keeping my chance up is epic save bonuses.

Now what about the same situation at level 20. If fighter doesn't win inititive and kill the wizard (a problem with all-day buffs) the wizard should EASILY waste the fighter with all those spells.

The fact that you might not have enough spells for later does not make up for the fact that you can utterly waste the first opponent, even if they are more powerful than you. This arguement works for not changing haste, and you see where that lead.

All classes have their advantages and disadvantages. Fighters are able to take down the wizard at any level should they be able to strike the wizard, and the wizard can strike down the fighter unless they get killed, distracted, or otherwise prevented from taking down the fighter first. Besides the point that the fighter is fully function all day long, while the Wizard has limited 'ammo', so to speak.