Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)

[LokiDR]

I.E. If you want, you can delay the explosion of that fireball or the summoning of that balor or the flesh to stoning of that dire bear until the time stop ended, at which point any spells you had cast as delayed would take effect. That's it.

It could go either way, as the spell doesn't say "you may choose not have the effect begin at that moment or when the time stop expires". I lean twords all spells start at the end of the time stop, as it says all duration start then.

I also think it is a 9th level spell, one of the most powerful, and should be used only with DM approval. 9th level spells in general can cause havoc if just played by the book.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: Re: Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese

While this is a variant presented in the ELH, one of the old rulings stated that this was not the case. You could leave the X fireballs hanging in the air and yes they would all "hit" when TS ended, dealing their normal damage.

I have no doubt the spell will be changed, probably something like you suggested (or is suggested in the ELH). Hopefully, they'll make it a lower level spell if they do that.

The problem is its too powerful as is, but if they remove the ability to do stuff to people its way too weak for 9th level. If you can still put summons etc it place its maybe a 9th level spell but I'd say more like an 8th. If they remove the abiltiy to even place things like summons its more like a 5th level spell at most.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Would the entire concept not work, or just some parts? Is WotC ruling that you can't cast a time stop while in a time stop?

In any case, I only plan on adopting parts of 3.5 that suit my tastes, which is very little from what I've seen of it so far.

You've already made your decision to play with a "munchkin" setting. Why are you asking us for advice?

 

[Shalewind]

Angcuru, I'm finding it very difficult to understand where you are coming from on this point. You asked for:

Someone PLEASE point out some technicality that would prove this wrong, or else magery just became the one and only choice for Munchkins

Several people have offered you their views on how this can be done, so you should be satisfied.

1) Time Stop is a highly debated spell. Plus, most of this point will be mute in 3.5. You could solve your problems by perscribing to the moderate, rather than the high-damage, inturp. of the spell.

2) Your version of wish has been explained to be high-over-powered in the opinion of those that have answered, and mine. I don't believe this to be a valid use, nor does it have 3e prescedent. You could solve your munchkin combo by saying it is illegal...

3) Past level 40, even the Epic rules break down a little. At that kind of power the DM should be using soft rules anyway, not word for word hard rules. It's his responsibilty to balance the game and make it fun.

So, you have your answers. The majority of the DMs will not have this problem with this combo because they ascribe to one of the above rulings. If you refuse to do any of these because of a "strict ruling" or whatever you want to call it, then I guess you answer is no, there isn't a technicallity blocking the munchkin player and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

[Angcuru]

You've already made your decision to play with a "munchkin" setting. Why are you asking us for advice?

I'm just trying to decide if this combo is feasible within the rules. I try to avoid munchkin settings. I originally asked this out of curiosity, since it seemed like it was possible...which it is, except for possibility of the wish for re-memorization of spells thing.

I think it's a good idea to realize the possibilites of what a power-gamer might do ahead of time, so I can figure out ways to prevent such situations from arising.

Here's what I'll probably end up doing:
1 - Implement a HR wherein there is a 'cool-down period' for casting spells such as time stop, so that you can't cast one right after the other, since it would make combat way too easy.

2 - Use the ELH rule wherein all creatures who would be affected by the time stop are allowed spell resistance against it. If they pass, they act normally along with the caster of the time stop.

3 - Simply not allow for wishing for re-memorization of spells. While it might be possible to do so with the wish spell, it would way unbalance the system, giving high-level mages nearly unlimited spells.

4 - Perhaps add an EXP cost for casting Time Stop. If you have to lose XP to cast the spell, it becomes less attractive and will therefore be used less often.

I don't plan on using 3.5 unless someone gives me copies of the revised books, so changes therein are probably not going to be used.

 

[green slime]

2 - Use the ELH rule wherein all creatures who would be affected by the time stop are allowed spell resistance against it. If they pass, they act normally along with the caster of the time stop.

-snip-

4 - Perhaps add an EXP cost for casting Time Stop. If you have to lose XP to cast the spell, it becomes less attractive and will therefore be used less often.

First of all given that time stop does not affect an area, and the ready availability of spell resistance, are you going to have all the major players on your planet carried along with the time stop?

Elminster on the other side of Faerûn all of a sudden gets 1d4+1 rounds worth of action, because Nerf the wizard casts a timestop spell in Kara-Tur?

I think that this suggestion is another indication of just how ill-thought out certain passages are in the ELH.

But if you decided to use SR vs time stop, and with the feat Spell Stowaway, as a DM I'd be WANTING my players' spellcasters to cast time stop, so I could give them a good mangling without the interference of those bothersome meatshields.

In order cast 7 time stops consecutively in a row in a single round, you need the following Epic feats:

AutoQuicken Spell I, II and III which can only be taken at 27th level or higher
Multispell x5, Minimum level 21st

So all told the caster is at least 32nd level. And has no Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Focus, Improved Metamagic, or Improved Spell Capacity, in order to take better advantage of their inflated Intelligence.

In other words, the spellcaster could be casting 17th level metamagicked spells, or 16th level metamagicked spells with each metamagic feat costing one less level. Given that such a character probably would have an Intelligence of around 40 (17 +8 level +5 inherent +10 item) that means 15-16 spells memorized per day beyond the power of a 9th level spell (compared to the AutoQuicken dude who only has 7 9th level spells...)

Thus a Septuple Empowered Time Stop (with Improved Metamagic) grants 4.5x(d4+1) rounds of extra time. Not quite the same effect, but this wizard has far more spells to burn!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

3 - Simply not allow for wishing for re-memorization of spells. While it might be possible to do so with the wish spell, it would way unbalance the system, giving high-level mages nearly unlimited spells.

A good ruling. I'd like to point out that Wish can be used to get an 8th-level spell, not multiple spells.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

3 - Simply not allow for wishing for re-memorization of spells. While it might be possible to do so with the wish spell, it would way unbalance the system, giving high-level mages nearly unlimited spells.

A good ruling. I'd like to point out that Wish can be used to get an 8th-level spell, not multiple spells.

I dunno. I'm probably the only one here who might disagree on this. I don't find it unreasonable to "pay" 5000 XP to be "restored to full strength".

Throw Time Stop out of the picture for a moment. If TS didn't exist, and you had a wizard Wish to be restored to full strength (assume correctly worded), you seriously wouldn't consider that a fair wish?

True, there isn't any spell, regardless of 8th level, that accomplishes this. It has the possibility of combining Restoration, Heal (3e version), and some kind of insta-rest spell. However, does that seem overpowered for a "reality altering" spell that costs 5000 XP?

I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing something others can see. Later.

 

[Pax]

Well, here;s the thing. "fully restored" means everyting, even the current wish spell.

And I have a simpel rule ... ix-nay on the wishing for more wishes. Nope. Can't do it. Uh-uh. Sorry.

 

[Artoomis]

A good ruling. I'd like to point out that Wish can be used to get an 8th-level spell, not multiple spells.

I dunno. I'm probably the only one here who might disagree on this. I don't find it unreasonable to "pay" 5000 XP to be "restored to full strength".

Throw Time Stop out of the picture for a moment. If TS didn't exist, and you had a wizard Wish to be restored to full strength (assume correctly worded), you seriously wouldn't consider that a fair wish?

True, there isn't any spell, regardless of 8th level, that accomplishes this. It has the possibility of combining Restoration, Heal (3e version), and some kind of insta-rest spell. However, does that seem overpowered for a "reality altering" spell that costs 5000 XP?

I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing something others can see. Later. [/QUOTE]

No problem at all.

Of course, I'd make time "reset" to when the wizard last had full hit points and spells.

The net effect would be basically to get another chance. Given the e.p. cost, I'd probably let him have the memories of what happened, giving him an edge for the second try.