Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)

[Anubis]

No one commented on my method of stacking up Time Stops.

If you can cast 7 spells in a round, would it be legal to:

1. Cast Time Stop
2. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
3. Cast another Time Stop as your second spell.
4. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
5. Cast another Time Stop as your third spell.
6. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
7. Cast another Time Stop as your fourth spell.
8. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
9. Cast another Time Stop as your fifth spell.
10. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
11. Cast another Time Stop as your sixth spell.
12. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
13. Cast another Time Stop as your seventh spell.
14. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.

I assume this is legal. This lets you cast between 14 and 42 spells. I suppose you could Maximize all those Time Stops - or Empower them. I don't know at what level you could do all this, but pretty high, I assume.

Given various means to counter this in EPIC games as noted above, this may not be the best thing to do, of course.

Oh . . . THAT'S what you meant? Well why didn't you say so earlier? It sounded like you were casting [time stop[/i] while still in another time stop to keep time frozen. Well then . . .

THIS method IS INDEED legal by the rules. I still don't know why you would do this unless you have Delay Spell or a bunch of naturally delayed spells, but I would assume (and I think I'm giving you a very sadistic idea here) that any spellcaster with this as his or her tactic will have Delay Spell or will have developed a bunch of new spells that are delayed (Delayed Wilting, Delayed Lightning, etc.) OR new spells that have long durations (perhaps a Lightning Storm spell or a Meteor Shower spell). This would make such a spellcaster incredibly dangerous, especially in conjunction with Spell Penetration if you use the SR option from the ELH.

I feel sorry for your players, man.

 

[Artoomis]

Actaully, Anubis, I read the wording opposite from you and find THAT quite clear.


"While time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; however you can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop ends"

An effect that takes place after the Time Stop ends.

Seems pretty clear - the intent seems to be that ANY spell effect would take place after the Time Stop ended. I see no reason to exclude instaneous spells at all. The language and intent both seem quite clear to me.

I guess we simply disagree.

 

[Apok]

Again, you are reading it ENTIRELY wrong. It says you can leave spells that will take effect after the duration, not that it will extend durations to last past the spell.

From the SRD; "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the character's attacks and spells; however, the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells’ durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)"

You aren't extending anything's duration, it simply doesn't take effect until after the Time Stop ends. I see nothing in here that would invalidate spells of Instantaneous duration from being cast within a Time Stop and then taking effect. "Create spell effects." A fireball and a lightning bolt are spell effects, last time I checked, and a spell effect brought into effect while a Time Stop is running remains in "stasis," if you will, until the Time Stop runs out and then takes effect. I'm sorry, but I just don't see where you are getting the exclusion of Instant spells from this.

Wrong. This is not how it is written nor is it how the spell was ever intended. Sometimes, when the word of the rule isn't clear enough for ya', look to the spirit of the rule instead if you must. I see no need, but I'm guessing you do if you actually think the letter of the rule allows this.

Your opinion, not fact. If what you say is true, then the designers would have likely placed a clear exception in the description of the spell itself. When 3.5e comes out, I have a feeling the designer's true intent regarding the use of Instant spells and Time Stop will be known. That aside, you are making an assumption based upon your own bias, which doesn't make you the Absolute Authority. I respect your opinion on this matter, but I must disagree.

Your version of Time Stop would be FAR more powerful than all other 9th-Level Wizard spells in the game. This is so powerful even an EPIC spell couldn't likely do it. You're talking DEIFIC abilities now.

The fact that it allows a Wizard to deplete his spell resource for the day faster? I see this as a good thing! Whenever a player chooses to dump-off a bunch of spells in a Time Stop, I have to stop from grinning because of the sheer waste of his resources. Epic spells, btw, can do anything the DM will allow them to do, so I'd say they can do what Time Stop can do and a whole lot more. This is hardly Deific power levels, either. Have you seen some of the abilities that God's can get in the Deities & Demigods book? Being able to sling around a bunch of damaging spells through a Time Stop is nothing to a God who can alter the reality around him to suit his whims at will.

Just as an aside, flinging out large numbers of spells in a round is quite feasable even without Time Stop. Consider a wizard with all three Auto-Quicken Spell feats and a few Multispell feats. Even without Time Stop, you can discharge 3-4 spells each round as a free action.

I understand your arguments, really, but they are your opinion and not the absolute intent of the designers. If it was that cut & dry, we probably wouldn't be having this disucssion but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue, good sir. BTW, I like the solution to the Wish problem, I may just use that when one of my players decides to get really weasely with the wording of a Wish spell. Con damage, yummy....

 

[Caliban]

The old Time Stop debate.

Unfortunately, if you want to go by the letter of the rules instead of the spirit, then yes you can cast instantaneous spells in a Time Stop and have them take effect afterward.

I personally think this goes against the intent of the spell, because it contradicts the "While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells..." portion of the description.

If you can just leave a Fireball hanging to hit them the instant the Time Stop ends, then they really aren't invulnerable to your spells, are they?

For what it's worth, Monte Cooke also agreed with my interpretation of the spell the one time he took part in the discussion.

I also do not believe that the Haste spell functions within a Time Stop under 3e rules. (Under 3.5 rules it's irrelevent.)

Haste gives you an extra partial action before or after your normal action. Time Stop gives you 1d4+1 "apparent" rounds that all occur within your normal action.

Thus, the extra Haste action will occur once, either before the action you use to cast Time Stop, or after the action you use to Cast Time stop. The Time Stop actions will occur during the action you used to cast Time Stop.

(I realize that Haste wasn't a main point of this discussion, I just wanted to throw more fuel on the fire.)

 

[Angcuru]

I would agree that this could cause some confusion for some people, although I still personally feel no confusion. I will explain as best I can why I believe some of you are reading this wrong.

I read your posts, and I can't see how you can interperet the spell the way you do.

This spell is not intended to be an all powerful killer of everything, so being allowed to "leave" instantaneous spells is obviously not in accordance with the spirit of the rules...

It's just your opinion, man.

Intention aside, the wording of the spell states that any spell(s) cast during a time stop can be opted to take effect when the time stop ends. To put it more simply, casting spells in a time stop can be like preparing them to be instantly cast when the time stop ends. So: If you cast 2 fireballs, 3 magic missiles and a wind wall while in a time stop, at your option they can take effect as if all cast the moment the time stop ends. Time stop ends, and the two fireballs explode as the magic missiles hit their targets and the wind wall is erected.

I think that if they leave the spell mostly the same in the revisions, however, my interpretation here will hold out to be correct.

Umm...you aren't correct in the first place, man. Still arrogant.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Unfortunately, if you want to go by the letter of the rules instead of the spirit, then yes you can cast instantaneous spells in a Time Stop and have them take effect afterward.

I already stated this, but having Caliban re-iteratei it is important.

Honestly, I really don't understand the whole "instantaneous spell go off and do no damage" argument and I never have.

(from TS) ...the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells’ durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)

Why would a Fly spell's duration not start during a TS, while a fireball would go off? This stings of inconsistency, and while some scream "overpowered!" in regards to that interpretation, that is still the correct interpretation.

And in response to the original topic of this thread.... Have you ever played in an Epic game and *tried* to do as you suggest?

I have 2 examples (yes, from my own experience). First, I was playing an Epic wizard of 26th level in a one shot adventure. I had to kill a nasty something or other (Abyssal I think). So I prepped my spells thinking I'd use the TS combo, dumping all my spells on the creature, bolting if I got into trouble. Well, let's just say it didn't work out too well. Despite having Quicken, Multispell, and two TS spells, the thing survived my onslaught and we had a knock down, drag out fight. I only managed to beat the creature through an Imprisonment scroll, luckily defeating its SR.

My second example is from an ongoing game I'm in. I play an Epic Sorcerer (~35th) who specializes in Metamagic. For an ongoing game I took a more modest approach: no TS. I didn't want someone to do to me what I could "theoretically" do to them. However, I did take Auto-Quicken x3 and Multispell x2, so I toss 4 spells a round.

Now you'd think my character was pretty powerful in terms of combat potential, right? You'd be mistaken. At epic levels, everyone has insane save bonuses. Since I didn't take the Spell Power classes (archmage, red wizard), my DCs aren't anything special, so all my spells are saved against.

While the TS/Auto/Multispell looks powerful, at Epic levels your spells will just about always fail.

 

[LokiDR]

Limitations of Wish

In the 2e module called "Die Vecna Die" there are a pair of lich brothers who, when one dies, cast wish to bring the dead brother back as he was in the begining of the combat, including the wish in his memory. They can do this constantly. So there is precident for wish to restore all spells in your memory. The brothers weren't above 20th level either.

However, the description of wish in the SRD includes the following:

Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including the character's last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate and SR.

This means that a wish can restore a character who was just disintegrated without them loosing a level (almost like True Res) but undoing the loss of many spells in memory should be beyond wish.

 

[Artoomis]

Oh . . . THAT'S what you meant? Well why didn't you say so earlier? It sounded like you were casting [time stop[/i] while still in another time stop to keep time frozen. Well then . . .

THIS method IS INDEED legal by the rules. I still don't know why you would do this unless you have Delay Spell or a bunch of naturally delayed spells, but I would assume (and I think I'm giving you a very sadistic idea here) that any spellcaster with this as his or her tactic will have Delay Spell or will have developed a bunch of new spells that are delayed (Delayed Wilting, Delayed Lightning, etc.) OR new spells that have long durations (perhaps a Lightning Storm spell or a Meteor Shower spell). This would make such a spellcaster incredibly dangerous, especially in conjunction with Spell Penetration if you use the SR option from the ELH.

I feel sorry for your players, man.

Actually, I just came up with a legal way to do what Angcuru
wanted to do. I don't play EPIC games to start with, but it's a fun mental exercise.

Note that:

1. I assume that instantaneous spells will work with Time Stop.
2. You are limited to the number of spells you have prepared (unless a sorceror, then you are limited to the number you can cast per day). The whole wish thing was abusive and I did not count that into the mix.

 

[Angcuru]

NO NO NO NO NO!!! You people just don't seem to get it!

With time stop, you can choose to CAST NOW, and have the effect take place at the end of the time stop. Or in the case of using a Fly spell, you can cast it on yourself now and start flying normally, inside of the time stop. It's like your casting as normal, but you can't hurt anyone during the stoppage of time, so you take note the spell will take effect when normal time flow resumes!

Why would a Fly spell's duration not start during a TS, while a fireball would go off? This stings of inconsistency, and while some scream "overpowered!" in regards to that interpretation, that is still the correct interpretation.

Spells durations start normally, unless you CHOOSE to delay them. And yes, that is the correct interperetation. It says :

you can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells' durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)

I.E. If you want, you can delay the explosion of that fireball or the summoning of that balor or the flesh to stoning of that dire bear until the time stop ended, at which point any spells you had cast as delayed would take effect. That's it.

 

[Caliban]

NO NO NO NO NO!!! You people just don't seem to get it!

With time stop, you can choose to CAST NOW, and have the effect take place at the end of the time stop. Or in the case of using a Fly spell, you can cast it on yourself now and start flying normally, inside of the time stop. It's like your casting as normal, but you can't hurt anyone during the stoppage of time, so you take note the spell will take effect when normal time flow resumes!


Spells durations start normally, unless you CHOOSE to delay them. And yes, that is the correct interperetation. It says :

I.E. If you want, you can delay the explosion of that fireball or the summoning of that balor or the flesh to stoning of that dire bear until the time stop ended, at which point any spells you had cast as delayed would take effect. That's it.

I'm pretty sure that you are misinterpreting that. I don't think you have a choice, any spell you cast within the time stop is automatically delayed until the time stop ends.

But I'm also pretty sure that nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise, and it will all be a moot point when 3.5 comes out.