Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)

[Chimera]

Casting Time Stop within a Time Stop.

Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to going through the WonkaVision twice?

"I've made myself move really really fast in relative terms, now, in this state, I'll make myself go even faster! Muaha.AAIIIEEEE!!!"

Kaboom.

"Geez, that Wizard started moving so fast that he just durned exploded!"

(Of course, it's a very fast explosion. Those around the Wizard notice it primarily by the sudden absence of the Wizard and the rain of light ash.)

 

[Apok]

Okay, a few things...

First, the level at which you must be to even think of pulling off such a combo is beyond the scope of most campaigns. What some people see as "munchkin" I see as the norm for 45+ level characters. This is the kind of power that Epic Levels deal with, folks.

Second, I would not allow a second Timestop to be cast while under the effect of a Timestop spell. Something tells me that 3.5e will clear this up, but I urge you to take this advice to heart. Allowing the chaining of Time Stops is the first step towards loosing control of the game. Technically, per the rules as they stand now, there is nothing that says you can't cast another Time Stop, but I like to draw the line somewhere and this is it.

Third, I wouldn't allow a Wish to do what you suggest without twisting it's meaning well beyond the intentions of the person who made the Wish. IMO, instantaneously restoring all of your prepared spells after they have been cast for the day is beyond the power of a Wish.

Fourth, per the rules as they stand now it is possible to cast a spell of Instantaneous duration during a Time Stop and it will go into effect immediately upon the end of the Time Stop. Yes, Instantaneous is a valid duration and yes, you can cast multiple fireballs, lightning bolts, and what have you during a Time Stop so that they all come crashing down for big damage when the Time Stop ends. I see nothing wrong with this because Time Stop is a 9th level spell and should be usefull for more than just quick-buffing yourself or making a fast getaway.

 

[Angcuru]

First, play Time Stop by the book. Second, play Wish by the book. Doing this will prevent that ridiculous little scenario. There are no checks involved with Wish, it is strict interpretation of the Wish as worded by the player for the character. As for Time Stop, the only spells that can be left to work after the spell ends are ones with delay triggers (Delay Blast Fireball); no other offensive spells would work. This is clearly stated in the book.

The book gives SUGGESTIONS on how the system and all of it's components should work.

I actually checked this over, and BY THE BOOK, it would work. It CLEARLY STATES that any spell or effect you create while in a time stop can be BY YOUR CHOICE delayed until the time stop ends. So if I were to cast SUMMON MONSTER IX, the creature(s) could either show up now and be useless, or show up when the spell ends and be useful. ALSO, a Time Stop cast within a Time Stop could be delayed until the Time Stop ends, causing the second Time Stop spell to take effect, prolonging the stoppage of time.

get yourself an epic wizard who put all her additional spell slots into 9th level spells, and you got yourself a wizard who can stop time for minutes on end, although an Epic Time Stop would be more efficient.

 

[green slime]

The people I know and play the game with play the time stop with a strict interpretation: You cannot affect the other characters during that time, you cannot cast spells with a duration of Instantaneous while under the effect of time stop, You need Delayed Blast Fireball or the Delay Spell feat.

IF someone (PC) even tried to wish for something so ludricrous, they would be pelted with die and told to go look elsewhere. Really. What on earth gave you the idea that this wish is even remotely equivalent to any of the guidelines provided? Even if this munchkinny ability to rememorize all spells were allowed, you forget that the expenditure of 5,000 XP is no mere pittance (It is just under 1/8th of the XP to gain 42nd from 41st, or in other words, more than what would be received for an average encounter at that level) This wish is ludcrious on several levels, not least of which is the fact that it scales up with the wishers level. A wish can generally be used to emulate 1 (one) spell. Not reuse all of your spells for today. Just a single spell. The mind boggles that somebody might even contemplate allowing this wish in their game.

Furthermore, an Epic level mage of that caliber would probably be wary of time stop as they would be aware of the existance of Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) Which is readily available to all Wizards/Sorcerers of no greater than 21st.

The effect of all of a sudden standing around, isolated from your team mates, with a hostile enemy mage or two, could be hazardous.

Lastly, I would never allow the nestling of time stop. Any player who strongly disagrees, and doesn't like that can go find another game.

 

[Anubis]

SRD language:

An "instantaneous" duration spell meets the above criteria, so "by the book" a fireball will work.

Instantaneous is not technically a "duration".

Is the PHB language significantly different? If not, then instantaneous spells can be cast while in a Time Stop - they will activate when the Time Stop is over.

The PH is worded the same, but to say a variation of a famous line by Inigo Montoya, "I do not think those words mean what you think they mean."

You might think that "duration" means longer than instantaneous, but that would only be one way of looking at this - hardly "clearly stated" as you postulate.

I guess you just aren't as good at understanding the words as I am. Sounds pretty darn clear to me. It sounds like it's saying that you're allowed to leave spells that take effect after Time Stop ends, but any spells that aren't don't work at all on other people. That would mean the spell would have to be able to be delayed in the first place or have a duration longer than instantaneous.

Well, as I understood, the duration thing was cleared to work this way in the ELH, if that is the case, and the wizard wants to use Epic Level Feats, he will also have to use the Epic Level version of Time Stop.

Unfortunately, I am not really familiar with the matter...

Mustrum Ridcully

There's that too. ELH kinda made things worse by allowing a loose interpretation rather than simply making errata that made the wording more precise. Clear it is to an understanding mind, precise it is not.

Casting Time Stop within a Time Stop.

Wouldn't that be somewhat akin to going through the WonkaVision twice?

"I've made myself move really really fast in relative terms, now, in this state, I'll make myself go even faster! Muaha.AAIIIEEEE!!!"

Kaboom.

"Geez, that Wizard started moving so fast that he just durned exploded!"

(Of course, it's a very fast explosion. Those around the Wizard notice it primarily by the sudden absence of the Wizard and the rain of light ash.)

No, that's what happens when the wizard casts Wish to get his spells back. It's called a "sudden surge of magical energy" hahaha!

Okay, a few things...

First, the level at which you must be to even think of pulling off such a combo is beyond the scope of most campaigns. What some people see as "munchkin" I see as the norm for 45+ level characters. This is the kind of power that Epic Levels deal with, folks.

Second, I would not allow a second Timestop to be cast while under the effect of a Timestop spell. Something tells me that 3.5e will clear this up, but I urge you to take this advice to heart. Allowing the chaining of Time Stops is the first step towards loosing control of the game. Technically, per the rules as they stand now, there is nothing that says you can't cast another Time Stop, but I like to draw the line somewhere and this is it.

Technically, if you cast Time Stop within Time Stop, you would only be kinda extending the duration. Both durations would overlap and you'd go to the end of the longest Time Stop. This would not, however, allow you a ton of more turns in a Time Stop inside another Time Stop.

There IS a rule that states this. See the rule that states that effects of the same nature NEVER stack. It's basically the same principal behind stacking bonuses.

Third, I wouldn't allow a Wish to do what you suggest without twisting it's meaning well beyond the intentions of the person who made the Wish. IMO, instantaneously restoring all of your prepared spells after they have been cast for the day is beyond the power of a Wish.

WAY beyond. If my player tried that, he's take 1d6 points of damage per spell level he was "restoring". Or maybe 1 point of Constitution damage per spell level. Something like that. Dude would be dead any which way.

Fourth, per the rules as they stand now it is possible to cast a spell of Instantaneous duration during a Time Stop and it will go into effect immediately upon the end of the Time Stop.

Again, you are reading it ENTIRELY wrong. It says you can leave spells that will take effect after the duration, not that it will extend durations to last past the spell.

Yes, Instantaneous is a valid duration and yes, you can cast multiple fireballs, lightning bolts, and what have you during a Time Stop so that they all come crashing down for big damage when the Time Stop ends.

Wrong. This is not how it is written nor is it how the spell was ever intended. Sometimes, when the word of the rule isn't clear enough for ya', look to the spirit of the rule instead if you must. I see no need, but I'm guessing you do if you actually think the letter of the rule allows this.

I see nothing wrong with this because Time Stop is a 9th level spell and should be usefull for more than just quick-buffing yourself or making a fast getaway.

Your version of Time Stop would be FAR more powerful than all other 9th-Level Wizard spells in the game. This is so powerful even an EPIC spell couldn't likely do it. You're talking DEIFIC abilities now.

The book gives SUGGESTIONS on how the system and all of it's components should work.

I actually checked this over, and BY THE BOOK, it would work.

You could also change Fireball into a 0-Level Wizard spell that does 1d100 damage per level using "Rule Zero", but that doesn't mean that's how it was intended nor worded. You are reading it all wrong.

It CLEARLY STATES that any spell or effect you create while in a time stop can be BY YOUR CHOICE delayed until the time stop ends.

No it doesn't. It says you can opt to cast spells that can take effect later (i.e. Delayed Blast Fireball).

So if I were to cast SUMMON MONSTER IX, the creature(s) could either show up now and be useless, or show up when the spell ends and be useful.

Actually, they would show up now and work as normal because they would join every other combatant in the freeze.

ALSO, a Time Stop cast within a Time Stop could be delayed until the Time Stop ends, causing the second Time Stop spell to take effect, prolonging the stoppage of time.

Not exactly. The durations would overlap.

get yourself an epic wizard who put all her additional spell slots into 9th level spells, and you got yourself a wizard who can stop time for minutes on end, although an Epic Time Stop would be more efficient.

True, but why would you want to?

The people I know and play the game with play the time stop with a strict interpretation: You cannot affect the other characters during that time, you cannot cast spells with a duration of Instantaneous while under the effect of time stop, You need Delayed Blast Fireball or the Delay Spell feat.

This is also the CORRECT interpretation.

IF someone (PC) even tried to wish for something so ludricrous, they would be pelted with die and told to go look elsewhere. Really. What on earth gave you the idea that this wish is even remotely equivalent to any of the guidelines provided? Even if this munchkinny ability to rememorize all spells were allowed, you forget that the expenditure of 5,000 XP is no mere pittance (It is just under 1/8th of the XP to gain 42nd from 41st, or in other words, more than what would be received for an average encounter at that level) This wish is ludcrious on several levels, not least of which is the fact that it scales up with the wishers level. A wish can generally be used to emulate 1 (one) spell. Not reuse all of your spells for today. Just a single spell. The mind boggles that somebody might even contemplate allowing this wish in their game.

Damn skippy.

Furthermore, an Epic level mage of that caliber would probably be wary of time stop as they would be aware of the existance of Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) Which is readily available to all Wizards/Sorcerers of no greater than 21st.

The effect of all of a sudden standing around, isolated from your team mates, with a hostile enemy mage or two, could be hazardous.

Lastly, I would never allow the nestling of time stop. Any player who strongly disagrees, and doesn't like that can go find another game.

True, true, and mostly true.

 

[drnuncheon]

Anubis,

While I play by the same rules you do, I do not think that they are as clear as you claim. Even the authors of the ELH acknowledge that this is an interpretation of the rules, not the interpretation.

(And, in fact, the ELH version still allows for area effect spells to be cast - fireball is part of the example.)

For instance, I can find no indication that 'instantaneous' is not a duration - not in the glossary (where there's no definition at all for either) or in the Magic chapter (where instantaneous is discussed under...well...Duration.) If Time Stop had specified 'timed durations' then you would be absolutely right.

"That would mean the spell would have to be able to be delayed in the first place or have a duration longer than instantaneous."

This seems to be where the difference in interpretation arises. What do you think the sentence "The spell's durations do not begin until the time stop is over" means? That sounds to me like whatever the duration is, it is held in abeyance until the end of the time stop - there is no need for a delayable spell, because time stop does that for you. If you don't believe that, then what is the purpose of that sentence?

J

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, there's a few things that would stop this.

1> Time Stop has a duration of 1d4+1 round. It's never explicitly stated that the caster knows how many rounds he gets. So, you could interpret it either way; personally, I'd go with the "DM rolls it in secret" method simply because it prevents this sort of strategy.

2> What is permissible with a Wish is up to the DM. Restoring your entire daily allotment of spells goes WAY beyond what any DM I know would allow. Most of the things Wish can do are comparable to a 7th or 8th-level spell, because the primary function of the spell is to mimic lower abilities. It's clearly not balanced to have that effect at those spell levels.

Side Note: IMC, Wish is actually the second half of a two-part spell, Grant Wish being the other half. You can think of it this way if you want to figure whether something is a valid request.
Wish costs 5000 XP and sends an unblockable Sending (25 words max) to a random granter (usually a Djinn), who is then bound by a geas to grant your request as best as he possibly can. It also creates a sort of planar conduit to allow him to cast the spell as if he were located next to you, as if you were his Familiar.
Grant Wish has two effects: mimicking lower-level spells, or giving Inherent Bonuses. That's all it does. Casting it gains you that XP the other guy spent, but you can't CHOOSE to cast the spell, it only happens when someone Wishes (and since the wish is granted by a random person with this spell, it's not abuseable).
So, when someone makes a Wish, they're making a request to a sentient being who has to try to satisfy it using lower-level spells (or by granting an Inherent Bonus). That being isn't being malicious when he twists your Wish's meaning, he's simply trying to accomplish the task within his abilities. If you ask to never die, and he casts Imprisonment, it's because that's the only method within his capabilities that satisfies your stated request. (Some Djinn CAN be malicious, of course, if the request is totally at odds with their alignment, in which case they might find the worst way to do the job. Such as "attack that enemy!" resulting in them lobbing a Daze spell. It pays to be explicit.)
He can't chose not to help you unless there's no way to accomplish the task at all, in which case the geas fails and nothing happens.

If you ask for something really strange (a permanent, pencil-thin moustache), he might be mimicking a spell you've never heard of (DM's call, see?) to do it.

3> I'd also agree with the "no Instantaneous spells" people. Time isn't STOPPED, it's just slowed down for you personally. Instantaneous spells would take place at that instant from your point of view (i.e., inside the slow-time frame), and the damage immunity everyone else gets would stop that. After all, if I can throw a Fireball at someone and have it delay until the end of the Time Stop, why can't I throw a dagger and have it hang in the air until the spell ends?

It seems clear to me that the INTENT was that durational spells wouldn't start counting until the end of the spell to avoid giving Time Stop a downside for the caster. (It'd suck if your Haste wore off early because you chose to Time Stop).

 

[Angcuru]

So much argument over what spells you can cast while in time stop. Quoting DIRECTLY from the PHB:

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; however, you can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends. (The spells' durations do not begin until the time stop is over.)

I.E. If you were to cast a couple dozen fireballs while in time stop, they would explode harmlessly. HOWEVER, you can choose to leave the spells to take effect when the time stop ends, beginning the duration at that point, and since the duration of a fireball is instantaneous, they would all explode once the time stop ended.

You could use this time stop to cast a lot of Hold Person spells on your opponents, so that once normal time flow resumes, there's a chance that all of your opponents are held, since they get a save to avoid the effects of the spell.

As for the talk that time stop is too munchkinny, I disagree. I use the ELH variant rule wherein you allow every creature's Spell Resistance to be taken into account, to see if they resist the effects of the spell and act normally along with the caster. This could cause some HUGE problems for the mage. If a wizard casts time stop during a battle where it's him and a bunch of his fighter pals vs. a couple balors, there's a chance that he could be stuck in a time stop with one or more balor, with no fighter support. So, in effect, this is a very risky spell to use.

You could also change Fireball into a 0-Level Wizard spell that does 1d100 damage per level using "Rule Zero", but that doesn't mean that's how it was intended nor worded. You are reading it all wrong.

Anubis, perhaps you misunderstood me. Why in the Nine Hells would I want to do this? By stating that the rules are guidelines and suggestions i state that the DM is allowed to flex the rules to fit his perception of what something should do. If I think Fireball should be a Cantrip with potential for thousands of points of damage, I could do that, but then I'd be a horrible dm and be pelted to death by d20's when I implemented that HR.

And I've just proved myself right in my interperetation of the Time Stop spell. You were reading it all wrong. In any case, strict to-the-letter interperetation of the rules is a recipe for disaster. If we were to follow everything the way it was worded, then how can we use Rule Zero?
And would you mind turning down the arrogance, just a bit?

 

[Artoomis]

No one commented on my method of stacking up Time Stops.

If you can cast 7 spells in a round, would it be legal to:

1. Cast Time Stop
2. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
3. Cast another Time Stop as your second spell.
4. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
5. Cast another Time Stop as your third spell.
6. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
7. Cast another Time Stop as your fourth spell.
8. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
9. Cast another Time Stop as your fifth spell.
10. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
11. Cast another Time Stop as your sixth spell.
12. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.
13. Cast another Time Stop as your seventh spell.
14. During your 1d4+1 "rounds" cast whatever spells you like.

I assume this is legal. This lets you cast between 14 and 42 spells. I suppose you could Maximize all those Time Stops - or Empower them. I don't know at what level you could do all this, but pretty high, I assume.

Given various means to counter this in EPIC games as noted above, this may not be the best thing to do, of course.

 

[Anubis]

"The spells' durations do not begin until the time stop is over."

I would agree that this could cause some confusion for some people, although I still personally feel no confusion. I will explain as best I can why I believe some of you are reading this wrong.

I think the key is the sentence right before it. "While time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; however you can create spell efects and leave them to take effect whyen the time stop ends."

Based on the obvious spirit of the rules, I look at these two sentences together and decipher it that way. This spell is not intended to be an all powerful killer of everything, so being allowed to "leave" instantaneous spells is obviously not in accordance with the spirit of the rules. What then do these two sentences mean?

I think it is a case of overexplanation, and I think that the spirit of the rules make this fairly obvious, which is why I believe the spell description is quite clear. I see this as being able to mean only one thing when you factor in everything. All things considered, it is clear to me that these two sentences are merely explaining that you can leave delayed effects to start once the spell ends, and that since you cast it so fast, the durations of such timed spells count down after the spell ends.

Looking at this, perhaps I may be in the minority in believing that this wording is as clear as I thought, but then again, I also understood the item creation rules the first time I read them, so I guess I may just be better at seeing through bad wording. In that case, I apologize for assuming that the wording was so clear to everyone else. There is obviously a need for clarification on the matter. I think that if they leave the spell mostly the same in the revisions, however, my interpretation here will hold out to be correct.

I guess all that's left is to wait and see.