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Avenger's Infinity War *Spoiler* Discussion

Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
“The past century”. Also known as 0.05% of the lifespan of humanity.
Permanent settlements, aka cities, have only existed for maybe 8% of humanity’s time on Earth.

Humanity survives, the culture does not. We’re spread out enough now that no one disaster will doom all of humanity, but our foolishness has killed numerous civilizations in the past.

I can think of a few disasters on their own that could still wipe out Humanity. Don't count our extinction out just yet.
 

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Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
You’re kidding right? There’s a reason the world is supporting ten times the population now than it had even a century or two ago.

Adaptation and innovation.

I’m not saying that famine isn’t a thing. It certainly is. But our ability to sustain population has increased to unimaginable levels in the past century.

What “moving on” have you seen in the past century?

There is however a fear that we might run out of our capability to sustain our innovation fast enough, and that we will run out resources. In the real world, it happened mostly in isolated places, but Earth is kinda an isolated place as well, unless we innovate to find a way to expand our resource consumption beyond Earth (which doesn't neccessarily mean colonization, depending on what we need.)

Anyway, all that is reality and speculative. In the fictional world of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the world Titan apparenty did face a resource crisis and they weren't able to innovate beyond it, ending with their species destruction.
 


Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I liked it more than Thor, and a lot more than Ultron, but less than the first Avengers film.
 

Hussar

Legend
Just saw it yesterday. A very good movie. Not just a good "superhero" movie, but, a good movie all the way around. Thanos was fantastic.

It will be very interesting to see how they go forward.
 

My son watched it a second time the other day. He made an observation I thought was note worthy. Comic book followers are "WoW!" while people whom don't know / understand the comic it is based on are outraged. Outraged that heroes died. Outraged the Villain "won".

Anyone else see this in the theaters?
 


Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
It's a Part 1. At the end of any part 1, regardless of genre, the villain will have won or at least be in a really, really good strategic position.

At the end of Star Wars the Death Star is destroyed - how is that a really good strategic position for the Empire?


People go to see complete movies, with a clear beginning - middle - end point - bridge to sequel. Infinity War didnt do that, we are left at the middle point and now have to wait a year for the resolution.

what the Marvel Movie machine has achieved is a way to churn out movies so quickly that it mimics a TV series, using MArvel TV, Trailers and other movies to maintain the interest despite the time lags.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
At the end of Star Wars the Death Star is destroyed - how is that a really good strategic position for the Empire?


People go to see complete movies, with a clear beginning - middle - end point - bridge to sequel. Infinity War didnt do that, we are left at the middle point and now have to wait a year for the resolution.

Empire Strikes Back did that too. I think there’s room for long form storytelling in the movies.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
At the end of Star Wars the Death Star is destroyed - how is that a really good strategic position for the Empire?


People go to see complete movies, with a clear beginning - middle - end point - bridge to sequel. Infinity War didnt do that, we are left at the middle point and now have to wait a year for the resolution.

Oh, it's way more complex than that. Back when my parents were kids, they went not just for complete stories but also serial stories - the exact type of story the that the original Star Wars saga paid homage to and that the various large project movies we've seen over the last 18 years have incorporated. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows 1 and 2, the Hobbit. This isn't new and there really isn't an excuse for movie-goers to not understand that.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
yeah, even Forbes has gotten in on it, with at least three different articles discussing the Thanos' sustainability plan , we do live in truely bizarre times

Great article. Articulated what I as trying to say about how silly Thanos’ plan is while also helping me to see that Thanos was indeed just crazy. Where I still think the film has a flaw though is in following Thanos’ motivation from seeing his world destroyed and thinking he knew the reason to why he believed there was a similar problem in the universe as a whole. I can see him seeking out individual planets where his bizarre view on overpop might come into play, but what has made him think that it’s a universe wide problem that will be solved if he acts now to reduce the population.

Furthermore, that lack of connectivity in his motive leads to thematic issues with the film itself, as the MCU movies are largely about the right way to use power. We clearly see Thanos using power the wrong way, but how does that directly tie into the character choices of the Avengers? They didn’t create him, like with Ultron, nor did they allow him to come to existence because of anything they did wrong in their part. Are the Avengers in danger of following Thanos’ path? It doesn’t seem like the film was implying that.

And for AIW to be a complete film on its own, we need to know.

Imagine ESB where Vader doesn’t reveal himself to Luke. Wouldn’t that whole film feel like just a setup for the next? Because it would be missing its emotional climax. The moment that makes a film with a plot cliffhanger still have a complete thematic, character, and emotional story.

And the killer thing is, after GotG2, DrS, Spidey, Ragnorock and especially Black Panther did such a great job of having emotionally resonant cores, it’s too bad AIW stepped back into being just a punch up comic book movie.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest
Great article. Articulated what I as trying to say about how silly Thanos’ plan is while also helping me to see that Thanos was indeed just crazy. Where I still think the film has a flaw though is in following Thanos’ motivation from seeing his world destroyed and thinking he knew the reason to why he believed there was a similar problem in the universe as a whole. I can see him seeking out individual planets where his bizarre view on overpop might come into play, but what has made him think that it’s a universe wide problem that will be solved if he acts now to reduce the population.

Furthermore, that lack of connectivity in his motive leads to thematic issues with the film itself, as the MCU movies are largely about the right way to use power. We clearly see Thanos using power the wrong way, but how does that directly tie into the character choices of the Avengers? They didn’t create him, like with Ultron, nor did they allow him to come to existence because of anything they did wrong in their part. Are the Avengers in danger of following Thanos’ path? It doesn’t seem like the film was implying that.

And for AIW to be a complete film on its own, we need to know.

Oh, I don't think we do in general. There are a lot of ways in which the MCU movies are about the right way to use power. But there's no need for the Avengers to do anything to put Thanos on his path or make him as they did with Ultron. In fact, if he was somehow the result of their actions, then that would probably be evidence of the movies stuck in too much of a rut since there would be no variation on the theme. Rather, a totally external actor intersecting with the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy feels like a more organic story and works just fine to me. We still have direct comparisons between the Avengers and Thanos in their pursuit and use of power - we have all of the previous examples of the heroes using the power of the stones in limited ways, controlling the stones' impact, giving up the power, serving as custodians of the power rather than exploiters. All of that stands in stark contrast to Thanos. We also have characters like Cap unwilling to simply sacrifice even one friend while Thanos murders the daughter he loves for power. More satisfying contrast between the perspective of the heroes vs Thanos's warped perspective.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
At the end of Star Wars the Death Star is destroyed - how is that a really good strategic position for the Empire?

You do realize that the original SW was made to function as a standalone movie in the likely event that it was the only chapter to ever get made. Right?



People go to see complete movies, with a clear beginning - middle - end point - bridge to sequel. Infinity War didnt do that, we are left at the middle point and now have to wait a year for the resolution.

Well what do you want?
A) The complete story all at once? That'd be about a 5hr movie. With about another 40some minutes tacked on for trailers, credits, & the post credit scene. (then add some more time for the staff to clean up for the next showing)
Most of the movie going audience don't want to sit through something that long.
The theatres absolutely don't want that length of movie. Because that greatly limits how many showings per day they can schedule. Less showings = less tickets sold = less food sold. Long shows = less $.

B) Everything crammed into 2.5hrs? I guarantee you'd be complaining you saw a crappy movie.

C) Pt1 & Pt2 released simultaneously or back to back? That won't work.

D) Not make this story? Or any other long term story that takes several/many movies to set the stage for?

Edit: Oh, BTW. Nothing is forcing you to see A:IW - or any other movie you think is incomplete - right when it comes out.
You've known for a year or two that it was initially called A:IW pt1....
So wait until just before Pt2 hits the theatres, watch Pt1, then go watch the 2nd part.
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
You do realize that the original SW was made to function as a standalone movie in the likely event that it was the only chapter to ever get made. Right?

C) Pt1 & Pt2 released simultaneously or back to back? That won't work.

I'm not sure about that. There's nothing magic about releasing them a year apart. The real and practical question is whether or not they have the capacity to complete the post-production work on a faster schedule. If they had the capacity, there's certainly no reason they couldn't release them 4-6 months apart. I think the market would respond positively and people would turn out to both as well as they would separated by a year. They'd just have to be able to complete the work and block off the marketing time with the actors.
 

Derren

Hero
Great article. Articulated what I as trying to say about how silly Thanos’ plan is while also helping me to see that Thanos was indeed just crazy.

You probably should read the link first before commenting on it. Scenario 7 is closest to Thanos plan and as you can see on the graph the population problem would be solved for quite some time.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Well what do you want?
A) The complete story all at once? That'd be about a 5hr movie. With about another 40some minutes tacked on for trailers, credits, & the post credit scene. (then add some more time for the staff to clean up for the next showing)
Most of the movie going audience don't want to sit through something that long.
The theatres absolutely don't want that length of movie. Because that greatly limits how many showings per day they can schedule. Less showings = less tickets sold = less food sold. Long shows = less $.

B) Everything crammed into 2.5hrs? I guarantee you'd be complaining you saw a crappy movie.

C) Pt1 & Pt2 released simultaneously or back to back? That won't work.

D) Not make this story? Or any other long term story that takes several/many movies to set the stage for?

Edit: Oh, BTW. Nothing is forcing you to see A:IW - or any other movie you think is incomplete - right when it comes out.
You've known for a year or two that it was initially called A:IW pt1....
So wait until just before Pt2 hits the theatres, watch Pt1, then go watch the 2nd part.

Not sure about [MENTION=1125]Tonguez[/MENTION] but what I want is a complete story inside a larger story.

Kind of like an adventure that tells a complete story while still being part of a larger campaign.

And while you can leave things unresolved, at the end of the adventure, that piece should still have it's own satisfying beginning, middle and end.

AIW tries to do this by making Thanos the protagonist of the story, but because his motives are compromised by his insanity, instead of getting an anti-hero that you empathize with even while abhorring their actions (see The Godfather, Wolf of Wall Street, Empire Strikes Back, Dexter), you end up in this weird space where to see things from Thanos' point of view you actually have to think he was RIGHT in killing half the Universe's population as if the idea weren't both completely illogical, insane and evil.

I have no doubt that the creators of AIW wanted people to empathize with Thanos in the same way people do with Darth Vader or Don Corleone, but those movies earn that. AIW does not.
 

Hussar

Legend
Who sympathizes with Darth Vader? Vader was a monster by the end of Empire. He was not sympathetic at all. :uhoh: I might see it by the end of Jedi, when Vader is somewhat redeemed, but, at the end of ESB? He's a murdering psychopath with zero redeeming qualities.
 

So it’s the original 6 Avengers plus War Machine and Rocket, and possibly Ant-Man and Wasp (although I have a feeling their post credit scene may involve one of them turning to dust). And certainly Captain Marvel, although exactly how she fits into it is a bit unclear. Supposedly, her film takes place years ago in the MCU. So perhaps she’ll arrive in the present day MCU somehow? Or she’ll simply be older and come out of retirement. We’ll see.

And I agree with those who’ve said Hawkeye will lose some or all of his family. There are shots of him from the set of Avengers 4, and he’s in an alternate costume that he only wore in the comics when he was going through some dark stuff.

I wonder what the next film’s title will be. “Avengers Assemble” seems appropriate but almost too optimistic given the current state of things.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I wonder why everybody doesn’t have Mjolnir+ level artifacts. According to giant Tyrion, it only takes a few minutes and one guy to make one when the forge is running.
 

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