Awareness and Surprise

[Vegepygmy]

Here's the scenario:

The PCs are all hiding (around corners, behind furniture, etc.) in a room, waiting for the monster to enter so they can ambush it. Unbeknownst to them, however, the monster has the Scent ability. Just before it enters the room, the monster smells the PCs. The monster's Spot check does not beat any of the PCs' Hide checks, however, so while it knows they are somewhere within about 30 feet, it cannot actually see them. The monster decides to go ahead and enter the room, at which point the PCs launch their (ranged) attacks.

The DM calls for initiative rolls, and the players scream bloody murder, claiming they should get a surprise round since the monster doesn't know where they are. The DM says no, because both sides are aware of each other (even though the monster doesn't know exactly where the PCs are hiding), and thus there is no surprise round. Instead, says the DM, the PCs pop out from the corners or furniture behind which they have been hiding, and must then win initiative in order to attack before the monster can react to them.

According to the RAW, is the DM right or are the players correct? (Please do not get sidetracked and offer suggestions about what the players and/or monster could have or should have done differently.)

 

[TheEvil]

Near as I understand, they players didn't get any attacks off before rolling initiative. If that is that case, ruling that they gave away their hiding spots and then requiring an intiative roll is a bit of a screw job.

Given that both groups were aware of the others, initiative should have been called for: anyone who beats the monster gets their flat-footed attack(s)
anyone the monster finds during it's turn before their initiative don't get flat-footed attacks
anyone the monster doesn't find before their initiative still gets their flat-footed attack (at least the first one)

 

[frankthedm]

The PCs are all hiding (around corners, behind furniture, etc.) in a room, waiting for the monster to enter so they can ambush it...

the monster has the Scent ability...

the monster smells the PCs...

it knows they are somewhere within about 30 feet...

The monster decides to go ahead and enter the room, at which point the PCs launch their (ranged) attacks...

The DM calls for initiative rolls... because both sides are aware of each other...and thus there is no surprise round.

That is exactly how it is supposed to go. Surprise works off awareness of, not pin-pointing. Surprising things with scent will take being able to close 30' of distance in a surprise round' s standard action. If you are laying in wait, then it will come down to who "draws first" {wins initiative].

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[LostSoul]

The DM is correct.

 

[Justin Bacon]

According to the RAW, is the DM right or are the players correct? (Please do not get sidetracked and offer suggestions about what the players and/or monster could have or should have done differently.)

Debatable. The players are definitely wrong, but they may have gotten what they wanted depending on how the rules are interpreted.

First, why the PCs are wrong: By the RAW, there is no surprise round if both sides are aware. Since the monster was aware of the PCs before entering the room, there is no surprise round.

The question now becomes, however, when does combat start? This is a fuzzy question and no clear answer is given in the RAW for determining when combat starts. The DM could just as easily have ruled that combat started when the monster became aware of the PCs: Initiative then becomes irrelevant. Either the PCs win it and delay their actions; or they lose it. Either way, the monster goes first and spends his turn entering the room. Then the PCs launch their ambush. The monster is not surprised or flat-footed, but the PCs still benefit from having hidden themselves.

However, it is just as legitimate for the DM to rule as he did: Combat didn't start until after the monster entered the room. Roll for initiative.

Frankly, the RAW for starting combat are screwed up. It doesn't handle this situation in a clear-cut fashion. It doesn't properly handle a SWAT team kicking in a door on a room with people unaware of them unless the SWAT team is certain someone is on the other side of the door. It doesn't handle unexpected attacks from people you're physically aware of.

 

[TheEvil]

For those who have no problem with how things went down, I notice you didn't comment on the PCs losing their hiding spots. Care to comment on this?

 

[KarinsDad]

For those who have no problem with how things went down, I notice you didn't comment on the PCs losing their hiding spots. Care to comment on this?

Nothing to comment on. They didn't lose anything.

If the monster wins initiative, it still does not know where the PCs actually are. So, it would have to move to a position to where it can clearly see a PC in order to attack. But it still knows that PCs are within 30 feet. It does not lose its scent ability.

If a PC wins initiative, he would have to come out of hiding in order to attack. Hence, regardless of when the monster's initiative comes up, it has at least one target.

The DM ran this correctly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a PC wins initiative, he would have to come out of hiding in order to attack. Hence, regardless of when the monster's initiative comes up, it has at least one target.

The DM ran this correctly.

I think, rereading the OP, that this isn't what happened.

The PCs thought they had a surprise round, and declared their intention to attack.

The DM ruled that every single PC who was intending to attack 'popped up' - compromising his or her hiding place - and then initiative was rolled, before any attacks were made.

Initiative should have been rolled before any 'popping up' occurred, but it doesn't sound like this is what happened...

"Instead, says the DM, the PCs pop out from the corners or furniture behind which they have been hiding, and must then win initiative..."

-Hyp.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Hyp has it essentially correct: the PCs thought they would be getting a surprise round, and had previously declared their intention to attack unanimously.

Thus clarified, would everyone agree that it should have been resolved as Justin Bacon suggests above?

The DM could just as easily have ruled that combat started when the monster became aware of the PCs: Initiative then becomes irrelevant. Either the PCs win it and delay their actions; or they lose it. Either way, the monster goes first and spends his turn entering the room. Then the PCs launch their ambush. The monster is not surprised or flat-footed, but the PCs still benefit from having hidden themselves.

EDIT: In which case, the monster could enter the room, move about (up to its normal speed), pinpoint the first PC it came within 5 feet of, and attack him--all before the PCs "have any chance" to attack it? (Assume for purposes of this answer that the monster has total cover from the PCs until it enters the room.)

 

[Justin Bacon]

EDIT: In which case, the monster could enter the room, move about (up to its normal speed), pinpoint the first PC it came within 5 feet of, and attack him--all before the PCs "have any chance" to attack it? (Assume for purposes of this answer that the monster has total cover from the PCs until it enters the room.)

Well, the PCs could also decide to ready an attack instead. Here you've got basically two choices in how you're going to launch your ambush:

1. Are you are going to wait for the most opportune moment (delay your action) and get off a full attack routine?

2. Or are you going to rush your attack to hit your opponent the instant they walk through the door (ready an attack)?

If they lose initiative, then you'd effectively have a situation where the monster's quick reflexes allow it to take a decisive action (storming the room before the PCs have a chance to react).

Depending on circumstances, the DM might rule, however, that you need to expend a move equivalent action to stand up from your hiding spot. But I'd look at such a ruling with extreme askance: There are rules, IIRC, for attacking from hiding. So it strictly shouldn't be necessary to leave your hiding spot to attack. And unless you had a situation where the only hiding spots available required you to be prone (hiding under a bed or something), it shouldn't be ani issue any way.