Back in the day...

[Henry]

Go to most gamestores, they are still 90% D&D, and 9% other d20.
Why is that? I don't think the system is that strong.

Because it's what most gamers want - they wouldn't sell it, otherwise. As for new game systems or revisions of old systems within the past, say, 5 years - Continuum, Exalted, Vampire: The Requiem (reworked VtM), GURPS 4th edition, Riddle of Steel, just to name a few.

d20 is quite the strong and adaptable system, proven to me because there are dozens of fun games that have been released with the rules in the past few years - Arcana Unearthed, Spycraft, Mutants and Masterminds, Conan, Lone Wolf, etc.


Getting back to Gary's points, don't discount the marketing talk, as well - Gary was selling a new game at the time he wrote it, so of course he's hyping it as new and improved and more helpful to game masters. To me, it WAS new and improved, but it doesn't change the fact that had it failed, D&D would be in a very different place than it is, now, and likely not nearly as popular. It was the 1980's that saw its boom, and part of the reason was the solidity of AD&D as a good game system.

Like Merric, I too find it amusing to look back and see so many of the same phrase being used, almost 30 years apart, by two different people, both of whom are releasing a new version of D&D. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Numion]

Go to most gamestores, they are still 90% D&D, and 9% other d20.
Why is that?

90% of players want D&D?

System has little to do with it. Genres sell games, not systems.

 

[troy812]

...Also, I disagree with your thesis; I think that the psychological affect is extremely limited. I've played, for example, D&D, d20 Star Wars and d20 Call of Cthulhu, and the result was very different in play style between those three games, despite the fact that the majority of the rules were the same.

Play style is different but...
Not as different as it used to be. There is just something about a "level based" system that just builds in a strange brazen attitude that a skill based system seems to restrain.
Exp/Levels really change the way a person "plays the game." To a great degree... actions are taken, choices are made to advance the character rather than the story line.
Not ALL the time, but enough of the time, to really "psychological affect" the game.

my 2

T

 

[Umbran]

but quite a few of the new breed of players will overexaggerate and rant all over you on message boards and in person.

Right. And the prevalent rudeness of players (and people in general) will be somehow magically changed by using different rules?

No police force, just certain types of players.

Note how this always returns to the players in conflict with the GM? That suggests that the root of the issue lies in player-GM relations, not the rules set itself.

Ignoring the psychological aspect of the game put forth by the format and tone of the rules system is very much shortsighted.

I'm not sure how saying that the GM is not actually forced to rely upon the rules ignores anything. The psychology of presentation may create a tendency, but that's far from saying people are somehow compelled - that tye must play in a particular way. We are free willed human beings, and can choose to act in whatever way we like, no matter how a particular book is written. However...

When changing the psychological aspect of the game put forth by the format and tone of the rules system will not alleviate the problem, it makes sense to ignore it.

There are a couple million gamers out there. Each one has their own set of sensibilities about what they like in a game, and how it should be run. That's a lot of different sensibilities. To expect one game and mode of play to satisfy all sensibilities is unrealistic in the extreme.

So, we are left with the fact that not all combinations of GM + Player + Game will work out well. If you change the game, you may well fix a problem with one player, but craete problems with another. Changing the psychological aspect merely shifts which gamers with whom you will have a problem. That's shifting the problem around, rather than solving it.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. This is the nature of human beings, and does not indicate a weakness in any particular game.

 

[Numion]

Exp/Levels really change the way a person "plays the game." To a great degree... actions are taken, choices are made to advance the character rather than the story line.

But for example in d20 the levels are advanced only when story is advanced. The kind of stuff you're talking about isn't universal to d20, but rather to those d20 games with xp for killing monsters. Thats only a subcategory of d20.

 

[buzz]

Not as different as it used to be.

You mean back in the days when there were far fewer systems and most of them were a copy of D&D in some way?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Exp/Levels really change the way a person "plays the game." To a great degree... actions are taken, choices are made to advance the character rather than the story line.
Not ALL the time, but enough of the time, to really "psychological affect" the game.

I find this sort of a funny comment given how many times I've heard people refer to point-based warhorses like HERO and GURPS as munchkin paradises for min/max'ers.

IME, I find that people who tend to not care about "story" tend to not care about it no matter what system they are using.

 

[RFisher]

Part of me wishes I realized back then that the difference between AD&D and D&D wasn't that D&D was "basic". That it was really a difference in style & style of play.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want to trade in my AD&D experiences.

 

[JoeGKushner]

and the game hasn't been the same since.

But change is a good thing Diaglo.

Just keep repeating it to yourself.

I find it interesting to see how the past has effected the current incarnation of D&D and can easily see where video games and evne card games are effectign the look and play of the game, but so far, in my opinion, so good.

 

[Quasqueton]

Gods, Demi-Gods, and Heroes is really a necessary part of AD&D, because the deities are necessary to the game.

Another interesting statement.

Quasqueton

 

[Desdichado]

Go to most gamestores, they are still 90% D&D, and 9% other d20.
Why is that? I don't think the system is that strong.

I think it is. Then again, when I go to the gamestore, I still see the same ratio of D&D to other books as I always have. There's a big GURPS section, there's a big White Wolf section, etc.

The only big change is the d20 stuff -- stuff from other publishers that may or may not be D&D. None of that existed before.