back to 3e... feeling funny (aka 4e to 3e)

[Jack99]

Generally both, although an area effect might be able to wipe out most or all of a group of minions in a go.

It's odd how different experiences we can have. While 4e has more rounds, IME, it's nowhere as slow as 3e was, even more so at higher levels. At least 20-50% quicker.

/shrug

 

[BryonD]

It's odd how different experiences we can have. While 4e has more rounds, IME, it's nowhere as slow as 3e was, even more so at higher levels. At least 20-50% quicker.

/shrug

IME is the key. Maybe 3E wasn't "as slow" for everyone.

 

[avin]

It's odd how different experiences we can have. While 4e has more rounds, IME, it's nowhere as slow as 3e was, even more so at higher levels. At least 20-50% quicker.

We're just starting Paragon on my 4E but, so far, 3E had far more faster combats.

I think this is one thing designers will have to adjust on 5E...

IME is the key. Maybe 3E wasn't "as slow" for everyone.

At least not in lower levels, at higher levels it was a slow pain trying to calculate a Ranger/Archane Archer using different attacks. For lower levels there's nothing to compare. 3E is a breez.

PS. Your sig still offends me Bryon

 

[Herschel]

And some 3E players are just slower than others.

 

[Jack99]

IME is the key. Maybe 3E wasn't "as slow" for everyone.

I know, just like 4e isn't slow for everyone. Which was kinda my point. Although I am sure that to OD&D players, both are really slow

 

[BryonD]

At least not in lower levels

I took the context of the comment to mean at reasonable comparable levels.

But it doesn't matter because I am not offering any comment on the slowness or quickness of 4E. (I'm certainly not a qualified source) And so by extension I neither offer any comment on the relative speeds of the two.

I only point out that the "as slow" comment specifically associated with 3E does not describe a constant value for all parties. (As it would as well to 4E in the same context. At least I very comfortably assume it would, not being a sufficiently qualified source to declare such as fact)

I know, just like 4e isn't slow for everyone. Which was kinda my point. Although I am sure that to OD&D players, both are really slow

Different games are different. That is a theme of mine.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Whenever I hear things like 'reserve feat' and 'Ur-Priest', I immediately assume the campaign has gone off the rails.

Not only are Reserve feats not broken, any respected optimization guide to casters will instruct you to not bother with them. Minor Shapechange can get crazy with all the bonus temp hp over the day...but then again a truly broken caster isn't getting hit anyway and is using his swift actions to cast more spells as he novas as much as possible.

As far as the OP's 4 classes at level 6...to be fair one of them is a multiclass prestige class. It basically is made to combine with 2 other classes, so having 3 at level 6 is fine. Adding in Master Specialist because there's no point to stay in your base class as a caster is...slightly more cheesy. Still not outrageous. And for what it's worth, even by level 25, he'll probably still have just the 4 classes. it just looks bad right now.

As for 3E combats...not until level 14+ IMe does it slow down alot. And while the combats can be over very fast, rounds-wise (which is fine, most real fights don't last long), I've had lots of very long encounters. A prison breakout encounter in the dining hall with the guards behind knocked over tables for cover; a massive ship-to-ship melee with over a hundred enemy pirates and allied crewmates in total (handled like minions, deaths worth an RP xp award); a showdown with a Sacred Watcher gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer (and one Quesar ally) who had craploads of self-healing and the spell-shield variant to burn sorc spells to reduce damage taken...

All of them lasting 10-18 rounds and 3-5 hours (pretty quick, all things considered IMHO) just from my last campaign, off the top of my head. And the only reason the pirate and prison fights took so long was because I was just doing some basic mapping in my head and on paper while running it over the internet, so I had to constantly answer about who was where. I really need to learn how to use maptools...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Adding in Master Specialist because there's no point to stay in your base class as a caster is...slightly more cheesy. Still not outrageous. And for what it's worth, even by level 25, he'll probably still have just the 4 classes. it just looks bad right now.

yea, I plan on takeing level 7, 8, and 9 as ultimate magus, then level 10 of master specilist, then progress up 11,12,13,14,15, and 16 Ultimate magus...and my last 4 levels as Archmage...

So level 20 will be: Necromacer 3/Sorcerer 1/Master specilist 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 4

my 2 pyramids of spells will be Wizard 17 Sorcerer 11....that hardly seams op to me...

The Urpriest is right now fighter 2 Warlock 3 Urpriest 1

He plans on takeing 1 more ur priest then going Eldritch disciple so at level 20 he will be:
Fighter 2/Warlock 3/ Urpriest 2/ Eldritch disciple 10/ ??? 3
He will cast as a warlock 12 Urpriest 10 (11 but chart ends) so he is looking for another warlock PC to go for.

The mind bender is playing it straight for just high level spells, and the psiwarrior plans to deep a little into eaither warblade or swordsage...

 

[Jack99]

I only point out that the "as slow" comment specifically associated with 3E does not describe a constant value for all parties. (As it would as well to 4E in the same context. At least I very comfortably assume it would, not being a sufficiently qualified source to declare such as fact)

I am curious - since you do not think 3e was slow, how much time does an average combat take? How about a really hard combat to pushes all players to the limit of their resources?

 

[BryonD]

I said "as slow".

Most of my games have run with six characters. so I usually increase the number of foes to account for that.

I'd say the average turn is about 30 sec to 1 min per character. Certainly there are 2 or 3 minute events in there, but there are also plenty of 5 to 10 second turns as well. DM turns average more like two minutes, again with a range on that.

That is 6 minutes a round. That would put a six round combat in under 40 minutes. I'd say most combats are 4 to 10 rounds and last 30 to 60 minutes.

I'll also point out that there is a difference between "slow" and "how much time does it take"? I can run to the corner store and buy some cokes without missing much of the Indy 500. And yet I'm the one going slow. This is particularly important when you compare average combats to "resource pushing" combats. The latter may take longer, but if anything they move faster because everyone tends to be so focused.

I think the longest combats I've had have been between two and three hours. But these were major climatic battles designed to be the centerpiece of the night. They moved steadily, I don't recall think "this is slow".

When I read people talking about slow 3E combat, they generally comment on needing to reference the rules or do a bunch of math, or something that similarly pauses play. And while I'm most certainly not immune to these issues on occasion, they don't come near to controlling the pacing of play.

Combat going slow for 5 minutes sucks.
Combat going at a reasonable pace for 2 hours is 2 hours of fun.


BTW: I do not think 3E *is* "as slow" as some claim. "Is", no "was", "is".