Backgrounds, Merits, Flaws, and Traits

[Garthanos]

"As for your other point, I have a similar type of system in play, but this is a little piece of simulation in a game that I don't think is simulationist (something I like about 4e)."

Definitions are crossed in there dude.

The balancing point of only getting a benefit in compensation for when your limit actually limits you and only paying a price when your advantage really comes in to play... es muy non simulationist -> its about gaming and story ;-).

Just cause you are always X does not mean that X always has a significant impact on the story it does so when the player pays his metagame price or fails to.... and paying that metagame price sometimes allows him to resist manifesting X when the dm thinks he really ought (also the player still describes how he succumbs to his X so it isnt as heavy handed as it might be).

In simulation mode... you would always be X you would always get the effects of X.

Hmmm I think X made that unclear.

 

[Ryuka Tana]

"I understand your meaning, but I don't understand how that makes my system non-simulationist. In my system, you have flaws and you have merits, and both are always in effect. Even if a flaw is never important, you always have it, and the same holds true to merits."

"Maybe you misunderstood that I enjoy dipping a toe in a little simulation within a game which does not have a lot of that element. I like a balance of strong story bias and simulation."

 

[Garthanos]

"Maybe you misunderstood that I enjoy dipping a toe in a little simulation within a game which does not have a lot of that element. I like a balance of strong story bias and simulation."

Gotcha....I misfired my comprehension thought your were saying I was trying to assert simulation..... gack....

That said worrying about making the negatives sufficiently extreme is worrying about balance....

I didnt look close enough I am sure but what exactly is the difference conceptually between a Merit and a Feat?

 

[Ryuka Tana]

Gotcha....I misfired my comprehension thought your were saying I was trying to assert simulation..... gack....

That said worrying about making the negatives sufficiently extreme is worrying about balance....

I didnt look close enough I am sure but what exactly is the difference conceptually between a Merit and a Feat?

"You're right I did consider balance, but ultimately, balance is also an issue of the DM's control over circumstances. I tell my PCs that 'no no, this flaw won't matter this campaign', 'that would help a lot in certain circumstances', as much as I can without spoiling the plot."

"As for the difference between a Merit and a Feat is pretty similar to that of a racial trait (which some merits/flaws represent, such as Light Sensitivity, or Wild Step, or the one that gives you the charge capacity of half-orcs/orcs) and a feat."

"Merits must be relatively power neutral (useful at level 1 and at least somewhat useful at level 30), and must not be 'too powerful' (as determined by the DM) to take at first level. Major merits should be worth more than a feat, but minor merits might simply be a bonus feat, something everyone might like, or something like Polyglot, which allows the user to benefit more from certain feats (though I have many more languages than core in my world)."

"Merits are often things that are too specific or difficult to explain through feats. I think when I develop a merit, I consider a character's personality and talents, more than their training. Some people are talented artists, some train for years; and one cannot really learn to be a skilled singer, you can only hone a voice that already has a talent. That's the best way I can think to explain it (metaphors make things so much easier)."

"Makes me feel a little like a designer. I hope that helps."

 

[Garthanos]

"You're right I did consider balance, but ultimately, balance is also an issue of the DM's control over circumstances. I tell my PCs that 'no no, this flaw won't matter this campaign', 'that would help a lot in certain circumstances', as much as I can without spoiling the plot."
"

How do we know ahead of time?...see attempts to pre-balance flaws seem either doomed or heavy handed... I admit the last D&D I played before 4e was 1e... so my play style still is let the story flow where it flows I may find myself inspired midstream and something that would be very useful and worth its weight might end up ... fizzling because of either my players or my choice during play.

HERO and GURPS did this they pre computed values it had several effects that came up way too often.... either the flaws indeed never came up and were an excuse for giving people more potency or they were allowed to straight jacket game play. (enemies and allies in particular had this impact a lot but the problem was rather generic).

 

[Ryuka Tana]

How do we know ahead of time?...see attempts to pre-balance flaws seem either doomed or heavy handed... I admit the last D&D I played before 4e was 1e... so my play style still is let the story flow where it flows I may find myself inspired midstream and something that would be very useful and worth its weight might end up ... fizzling because of either my players or my choice during play.

HERO and GURPS did this they pre computed values it had several effects that came up way too often.... either the flaws indeed never came up and were an excuse for giving people more potency or they were allowed to straight jacket game play. (enemies and allies in particular had this impact a lot but the problem was rather generic).

"I can't answer that, at least not accurately and/or without people taking some offense. I'll say that with my group and my stories, it is simply not a problem. My group knows that I control my games, and I have my plots thought out to the extreme, and that works for all of us."

 

[the-golem]

How would you use this system? I'm sure it's something done at character creation, obviously, but is there a cap, do you allow starting merit and flaw slots?

Additionally, not to nitpick, but ... the prereqs for constitution are a bit, er .. off, to me. A Con of 15 is truthfully quite high, compared to a commoner with a Con of 9-10. Thus, I would impose a pre-req similar to this. Being feeble and frail would have you being less-hardy than the "average", so having a higher-than average Con and thus "more hardy" works against the flaw of feeble and frail.

Secondly, someone who is feeble is, according to my trusty Merriam-Webster, "remarkedly lacking in strength" .. A feeble person might not be able to pack a punch, but could still have a healthy body and immune system. A frail person would in truth be the one with the "pysically weak" body.

Just some food for thought, shutting up now.

 

[Ryuka Tana]

"I just wanted a cap, so that no one was simply taking frail with an abundance of Con. As I said, I overlook most of the choices, and if I don't think they mesh, I say so. I understand your meaning for feeble, as well, but since Fort does connect to Strength and Con, it's not necessarily irrelevant."

"Either way, if you like the system, employ it however you feel it fits your campaign, that was the point of my posting it, not as a final balanced rule system, but as an idea to possibly spark further ideas."

"As for how I work it, I insist my PCs take one major and minor flaw/merit combination. If they desire more than that, I allow it, within reason. It must be done at first level (though story based flaws and merits might come into play, such as someone getting over a phobia or gaining one, etc.) Like I said, it will be different from DM to DM, campaign to campaign. I also encourage my PCs to develop their own merits and flaws based solely on the character, before using the list, just to see if they can come up with unique ones."

 

[Nytmare]

I don't know, It kinda feels like you've just made a slightly more complicated, and extraneous system of feats.

My own personal take on, what are in my game, a character's quality, and flaw, is that every player chooses one of each, and they use them, totally divorced from any mechanics whatsoever, as a springboard to help explain why their rolls succeed or fail.

No balance issues, you don't have to worry about people cherry picking a bunch of maximized bonuses for minimized penalties, and you get the benefit of starting off with character development that isn't tainted by character optimization.

 

[Ryuka Tana]

"Personally, Nytmare, I see that as a group issue. This system works in my group, and everyone enjoys it. Once again, I didn't post this for anyone's benefit specifically, only to say, 'I'm using this, if you like it, steal it; if you have an idea, let me know.'"