Bad Faith and Sealioning

[Jahydin]

As someone who joined ENWorld specifically to read about experiences and opinions different to my own, I would hope that in itself isn't something viewed as negative.

For instance, I can't stand FATE or PbtA games. If I start a thread about what system I should use for a Halo campaign and someone enthusiastically recommends Masks, if I inquire why (despite not liking the system and having a very low probability of actually using it), I hope that wouldn't be seen as sealioning. For one, I could be pleasantly surprised (I own City of Mist, for instance); two, I really want to read the unique approach that another system could offer; and three, if someone else who wants to play in a Halo campaign finds the thread, it could be really valuable to them.

Same goes with others disingenuously asking me questions! If you ask me my favorite houserule for C&C, I could care less what your intentions are, I'm just thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about one of my favorite systems to tinker with.

Instead of worrying about intent, I guess my hope for moderation of this would be based on these two simple parameters:
1) If there is someone who in engaging another who wishes not to be engaged.
2) If there is someone who's trying to "win" arguments by pointing to lack of engagement.

 

[Micah Sweet]

With respect, I feel a little self-awareness might behoove you here. Why are people doing this? Maybe it's not everybody else. Why are you blocked by so many people? I mean it's enough that the forums must seem very quiet to you.

I wouldn't normally say this in public, but, well that's the topic of the thread and you brought it up. My advice is that next time the urge takes you to tell everybody how much you don't like WotC or DnD, maybe take a break that time. We know. We get it. We all got it years ago. Please don't think you have not succeeded in making yourself clear. You really, really have.

Just a tip. It might make your experiences on the forum better.

I appreciate the honesty. I'll try to avoid talking about what I don't like moving forward, since the whole reason I'm here is to talk about gaming (and to support Level Up and OSR playstyles), and it seems posting my dislikes is encouraging people to block me. I get it; I have a hard time letting that stuff go, especially when the vibe of the community seems to running largely against me.it makes me want to dig in rather than give up and walk away (as @Umbran suggested).

I apologize for generating a negative experience for anyone. It certainly isn't my intent.

This seems as good a place to put that out as anywhere.

 

[Hussar]

In a simple example that actually happens - if you come to me with an argument that the Earth is flat, you can be perfectly good at communicating your thoughts on the matter, so that I understand what you are saying. But, I will never agree with your argument, because you are just factually incorrect. No reframing will change that.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

But, I would point out that if I am perfectly good at communicating my thoguhts on the matter, you aren't very likely to accuse me of bad faith in my arguments. The point isn't to make the other person agree. It's to deescalate the conflict which has resulted from mis-communication. That you still 100% think the Earth is round, while totally wrong, is perfectly fine.

 

[Hussar]

You can have whatever opinion you want.

If you post your opinion in an open discussion forum, you should expect folks to start discussion around it. That will include questioning and challenging your position.

There are places you can go to state your opinions such that you will not be questioned about them. This ain't it.

And, just to add to this point, if you hold an opinion that cannot stand up to scrutiny, then, again, it's time for a bit of self-reflection. If one person challenges your opinion, that's one thing. But, if multiple people challenge it, it's probably a good idea to step back and re-evaluate.

Look, I'll freely admit that I can be pretty abrasive at times. I get that. I'm trying to be better, but, sure, it happens. And, there is also the point to realise that there are just some people you cannot talk to. There are posters here that I cannot have a contsructive conversation with. And, over time, most of them have either put me on ignore, or I've ignored them. And that's just better. I try to take people off the ignore list from time to time, just to see if things can be constructive, but, at the end of the day, if you are discussing things with people and it's not moving forward, there comes a time when you just have to stop.

 

[Hussar]

As someone who joined ENWorld specifically to read about experiences and opinions different to my own, I would hope that in itself isn't something viewed as negative.

For instance, I can't stand FATE or PbtA games. If I start a thread about what system I should use for a Halo campaign and someone enthusiastically recommends Masks, if I inquire why (despite not liking the system and having a very low probability of actually using it), I hope that wouldn't be seen as sealioning. For one, I could be pleasantly surprised (I own City of Mist, for instance); two, I really want to read the unique approach that another system could offer; and three, if someone else who wants to play in a Halo campaign finds the thread, it could be really valuable to them.

Same goes with others disingenuously asking me questions! If you ask me my favorite houserule for C&C, I could care less what your intentions are, I'm just thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about one of my favorite systems to tinker with.

Instead of worrying about intent, I guess my hope for moderation of this would be based on these two simple parameters:
1) If there is someone who in engaging another who wishes not to be engaged.
2) If there is someone who's trying to "win" arguments by pointing to lack of engagement.

Of course you wouldn't be accused of sea-lioning in that case. That's just normal conversation:

A: I want to play a Halo campaign.
B: You should use Masks.
A: Why?
B: ((And here I show my complete ignorance of the Masks system)) Because it does X and Y and Z really well.

And if that's the converstation, then great. Where it becomes sea-lioning (which, let's be honest here, you're very, very unlikely to see it happen in this kind of conversation), it would continue like this;

A: Ok. But what about this and this and this? Why Masks and not this other game? Don't you like this other game? Why don't you like this other game? This other game is great, and it has many people who like it. Why do you hate this other game? Why are you trying to tell people not to play this other game? Why do you hate people who like this other game?

THAT'S what sealioning looks like.

 

[Jahydin]

A: Ok. But what about this and this and this? Why Masks and not this other game? Don't you like this other game? Why don't you like this other game? This other game is great, and it has many people who like it. Why do you hate this other game? Why are you trying to tell people not to play this other game? Why do you hate people who like this other game?

THAT'S what sealioning looks like.

That makes sense to me since it's a basically a verbal DoS attack. If that's what's being scrutinized, then I'm all for it.

And understand the example was kind of silly, but wanted to use something "light" as an example rather than a controversial topic where these things tend to happen.

 

[Jahydin]

Also, understand the gist of the original sea lion comic, but wish the author used something trivial for the topic, like not liking syrup on pancakes or something.

As is, what the lady said was a bit rude and kind of deserves to be called out, right?

 

[Deset Gled]

Also, understand the gist of the original sea lion comic, but wish the author used something trivial for the topic, like not liking syrup on pancakes or something.

As is, what the lady said was a bit rude and kind of deserves to be called out, right?

That's a hard no from me, two ways.

First, one of the key takeaways should be that someone being "a bit rude" does not justify the behavior. It doesn't matter how much someone "deserves" it. A valid excuse to start sealioning does not exist (in the context of ENWorld, or most other internet forums).

Second, the sea lion actually validates the original complaint. By being a jerk when arguing against her, he proves her right. Which is just one of many reasons why bad faith and fallacious arguments are poor rhetorical tools.

 

[Bagpuss]

That's a hard no from me, two ways.

First, one of the key takeaways should be that someone being "a bit rude" does not justify the behavior. It doesn't matter how much someone "deserves" it. A valid excuse to start sealioning does not exist (in the context of ENWorld, or most other internet forums).

Second, the sea lion actually validates the original complaint. By being a jerk when arguing against her, he proves her right. Which is just one of many reasons why bad faith and fallacious arguments are poor rhetorical tools.

The problem with the original comic, is if you replace the her statement about Sea Lions, with any group (be it by gender, sexuality, race or religion) then the woman is clearly making a bigoted statement, surely members of that group deserve some justification as to why she is being exclusionary to them.

Also Sea-Lioning is generally referred to people persistently asking someone to defend their bigoted stance, when like in the comic they never do. However unlike the comic, generally the Sea Lion sticks to the thread or topic that the person made their bigoted statement (but yeah will keep asking why that person hold bigoted beliefs), it's not like they can follow them home or off the internet.

Maybe that comic would make sense if there were earlier comics where we saw the Sea Lion being a complete dick towards her, that might explain her and justify her opinion of them, and provide a wider context for this comic. But still unless all Sea Lions are always being dicks in earlier comic then she is still judging a whole group of marine mammals on the actions of one... sounds a little racist (speciesist), yet we are meant to believe she's the victim.

 

[Bagpuss]

First, one of the key takeaways should be that someone being "a bit rude" does not justify the behavior. It doesn't matter how much someone "deserves" it. A valid excuse to start sealioning does not exist (in the context of ENWorld, or most other internet forums).

Replace "sea mammals" with "ethnic groups" and sea lions "any particular ethnic group", does it come across as a bit rude or a bit racist?

Second, the sea lion actually validates the original complaint. By being a jerk when arguing against her, he proves her right. Which is just one of many reasons why bad faith and fallacious arguments are poor rhetorical tools.

She never explains her bigoted views, now admittedly the sea lion hounds her all the way to her bed trying to find out why she has such a poor opinion of sea-lions. But in reality the "sea-lioning" accusation and questions from the offended sea-lion is usually handed out within the same thread or topic, which can hardly be considered hounding the "victim".