Bad GM rulings? How would you rule?

[azhrei_fje]

Alright, I'll post this thread on our private forum for the campaign. And I'll mention that you (ie. other posters) were wondering about the players thoughts on this. I can't guarantee they'll come visit, though...

 

[gamer_girl69]

I'm the player whose character was CdG by the BBEG, but not the player who got angry about the whole thing. I honestly don't understand why he got as upset as he did about a character that wasn't his. Perhaps it was coming on top of having his PC Disintegrated prior, but it's D&D... chit happens, characters die, we go on with our lives. Yes, I'm a little upset about it, but as the GM pointed out, we have 2 clerics in the party capable of casting Raise Dead. I have played in this campaign for over 2 years with that same character, and enjoy it very much.

I was sick and unable to attend the previous session where my rogue decided to play pattycake with the Symbol of Insanity, but on the other hand, I didn't speak up and say, "Hey, couldn't we use a Rope Trick or something to safely stash these guys while we go kick some @ss?"

Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

 

[moritheil]

I honestly don't understand why he got as upset as he did about a character that wasn't his. Perhaps it was coming on top of having his PC Disintegrated prior, but it's D&D...

That would be my guess.

I'm curious, now: did the party have access to the disintegrate spell at the time?

 

[bramankp]

Some folks were curious about player's opinions and I'll give mine. Carol gave hers and that's cool too. I'll quote Frank's original statements so I can comment on what I saw as a player.

1A. Blade barrier along a grid line or through a grid square?

I think a lot has been said on this already. There's not much that I can offer here. Frank took up a line of squares that PCs were standing in and how you rule whether a player has to vacate that square to avoid future damage, etc., may be variable.

1B. Reaching through a blade barrier automatically inflicts damage. True or False.

Some people have used the idea of allowing a Reflex Save for reaching through. I think that's not a bad ruling. Not much to comment on from me here, either.

1C. Making the Reflex save requires the creature to move only into an unoccupied square (true or false). Or they can squeeze into an ally's square (true or false). Or they can bull rush an opponent and take their square (true or false).

Not much to offer other than what's already been said. Aside from the "reaching through" discussion I didn't see much to argue about with how the Blade Barrier was used.

2. A blinded creature must make a Listen check to pinpoint an opponent. The DC is 0? 20? Other?

I see where the conflict came from. I think I might have been the one that argued over not having to make the Listen check. To quote from the d20 SRD, "If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location."

The blind character what adjacent to the character he was trying to target. At the time, I think the target was casting spells or something else during combat. I had forgotten about having to be struck in combat to get the automatic pinpoint. Mea culpa, I guess. I don't think it was too far-fetched to cut the player a little slack or give some circumstantial modifiers.

3. Does wall of force block sound and/or vision? (It's invisible, so it seems unlikely to block vision. )

Ah, here's the sticky wicket of the bunch. The setup was thus: a character in a large-sized Force Cage was adjacent to a large-sized caster. You want him to make a Spot Check to notice, in combat, the guy right next to him casting a spell or to see his hand gestures?

No sound, I'll give you, but a Spot Check? I would argue that any day of the week.

4. How does control winds interact with the fog spells, specifically acid fog?

Nothing to add to this discussion.

5. Should I have forced the party to remain in "combat" mode?

I've read through a series of comments on this topic. I was the player who said something to the effect of, "Sure, if there's nothing further going on I wouldn't mind dropping out of combat so we can be done for tonight."

Obviously there's chances to metagame here and there, but Frank knew someone was going on and he had a valid device to keep us in combat that did not rely on metagaming knowledge. Some (albeit almost inconsequential) trap thingee was targetting PCs every round until we got out of the room. I, personally, don't care too much about what the BBEG did when she took her Ethereal Jaunt downstairs to kill the party members. It was the using of my "sure, let's wrap this up" statement and saying there was nothing we could do to chase her down that really burned me up.

I should point out that we're playing a very deadly module (RttToEE) and I've house ruled a number of player-friendly things:

Yes, Frank has some very generous player/PC-friendly rulings in his game. Probably more than I would have allowed. So be it. One ruling that has been a sticking point for a very long time has been the house ruling on Silence.

If a caster is caught in the area of a Silence spell they don't get a save to keep on speaking and continue casting spells. It's like saying you get a save to ignore an Obscuring Mist when you're right in the middle of it. I would trade two beneficial house rulings to get this one nixed. Four experienced players all would have done things differently if Silence worked like it does everywhere else.

-------------------------

So, in our private forum I did mention one other thing. Might as well bring it up here. I mentioned that it seems like the DM is making us take far too long in obviously out-of-turn gameplay. I can think of at least two sessions where we spent nothing but the entire session marching from room to room looking at stuff because we had to describe exactly what our characters were doing and where we were stepping all the time.

We're seasoned adventurer's. We search the room for secrets and treasure. The rogue does most of the searching of obvious places where a trap may be (chest, door, etc.), but I don't think it's asking too much for the DM to summarize a little of this and maybe throw in some flavor text about what we see. Storytelling. That's part of what I like when I play games.

At any rate, there's a view from another one of the players. I'll keep tabs on this thread for a little bit just to answer any questions people may have or to respond to comments as appropriate.

Personally, I think Frank has been very gracious in letting us play at his place. I haven't been here the whole 2+ (3+?) years this campaign has crawled along, but I've enjoyed the time I have been there.

Cheers!


Paul Braman

 

[azhrei_fje]

I won't comment on anything the players say. I don't feel that's appropriate at this time, but when the comments from the players and others here die down, I'll do my best to clear up any remaining questions that others may have about the campaign that the players are not privy to yet. However, I should clarify: I'm the GM, Frank, and the rogue who was CdG'd is gamer_girl69, Carol.

Carol has played with our group for almost as long as Paul has. The campaign started in April 2004 and Paul joined mid-2005, Carol in late 2005. We have a private forum that we use for session recaps, house rule clarifications/discussion, scheduling issues, and other miscellaneous stuff.

 

[Elephant]

I won't comment on anything the players say.

Could you at least clarify the house-rule on Silence? I found bramankp's summary of it rather confusing, and now I'm curious.

 

[moritheil]

That would be my guess.

I'm curious, now: did the party have access to the disintegrate spell at the time?

To clarify: I don't think it's a big deal to throw out disintegrate left and right at high levels; it is exceptionally painful, however, if the BBEG is higher level than the party and they don't have the option of disintegrating him, but he gets to disintegrate them.

I think it would help the audience understand this situation better if we were told what the party level and resources were at the time that the other character got disintegrated.

 

[Herobizkit]

Sorry for chiming in so late, and sorry if this has already been addressed:

If one of the party members was bound and unconscious, why weren't the others looking for him? And if said party member wasn't that far away, why didn't at least one of the PC's go to see if they could help?

 

[azhrei_fje]

Could you at least clarify the house-rule on Silence? I found bramankp's summary of it rather confusing, and now I'm curious.

I think there may be a misunderstanding here and I think it's my fault. I checked my "house rules" thread on our private forum and don't see silence listed. So I found it by searching the forum. It wasn't the clearest thing in the world, that's for sure. The discussion grew out of this thread here on ENworld.

Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.

My emphasis is on the three sections that have been clarified by the house rule.

First clarification: the two sentences in the middle are to be taken independently. So... The spell can be cast on a creature and the effect is thereby mobile. As a separate situation, any unwilling creature coming under the effect of silence can attempt a Will save to negate the spell.

Second clarification: since silence is an illusion (glamer), I've decided that the first emphasized portion of the spell ("or passes through the area") doesn't fit with the way I view illusions. So in a very long tunnel, if there's a segment in the middle that is covered by silence, it does not block sound traveling from one end of the tunnel to the other. (However, if the people making the noise are inside the silence, that sound will not exit the AoE, and that's the typical use of the spell anyway.)

If you'd like to discuss this more, perhaps a separate thread is appropriate? Or maybe even revive the linked-to thread after you've read through it?

To clarify: I don't think it's a big deal to throw out disintegrate left and right at high levels; it is exceptionally painful, however, if the BBEG is higher level than the party and they don't have the option of disintegrating him, but he gets to disintegrate them.

I think it would help the audience understand this situation better if we were told what the party level and resources were at the time that the other character got disintegrated.

Good point. I don't want to reveal more than I need to about the BBEG that got away (after all, she got away!), but the party knows something about the minion. Based on observations, they know he was at least a 13th level cleric, not enough for disintegrate unless he had the Destruction domain (Edit: but she cast the spell in question, not he). There were two mages in the party of 11th level, so they could have the disintegrate spell, but they have not yet learned it.

The party consists of 8 characters, in various states of health:

1. Paladin 11, human
2. Wizard 11, dwarf (targeted by destruction, but succeeded on Fort save)
3. Wizard 11, gnome (targeted by disintegrate)
4. Fighter 10, human (but suffering from blindness)
5. Cleric 11, human (of St. Cuthbert)
6. Cleric 6/Radiant Servant 4, human
7. Rogue 11, half-elf (one of the unconscious party members)
8. Cleric 12, human (unconscious; suffering from The Void effect)

#8 was originally an NPC and is now under the control of the players. There are 5 players in the group, so some players are playing multiple characters: #1 and #8 are played by one player, #2 and #3 are played by one, #5 and $6 are played by one.

The party mages can Spellcraft just about anything and succeed so they know what spells have been cast.

Major equipment amongst party members at the end of the encounter:

1. Paladin has gear worth 85k: holy greatword +1, full plate +1 of moderate fortification, ring of prot +2, gauntlets of ogre power. (About 25k of that gear is loot to be sold; being carried in a bag of holding, Type 4.)
2. Wizard has gear worth 48k: cloak of arachnida, rod of lesser empower, rod of lesser extend, then smaller stuff (headband of intellect +2, wand of fireball (6th level), and so on).
3. Wizard has (had) gear worth 51k: headband of intellect +4, rod of lesser maximize, then smaller stuff (haversack with lots of scrolls and a few wands).
4. Fighter has gear worth 90k: unholy heavy mace +1 of spell storing, mithral full plate +1, ring of prot +2, heavy steel shield +2, longsword +1 defending, boots of S&S, amulet of NA +2, cloak of res +2, then smaller stuff (bag of holding, potions, ring of FF).
5. Cleric has gear worth 77k: goggles of night, rin og prot +2, periapt of Wis +4, heavy steel shield +2, then smaller stuff (scrolls, full plate +1, wands, potions).
6. Cleric has gear worth 64k: periapt of Wis +4, heavy mace +1 bane (hmm, no notes on Bane type?), full plate +2 (SR 13), heavy steel shield +2, gautnlets of ogre power, cloak of Cha +2, then smaller stuff (wands, potions, a single scroll).
7. Rogue has gear worth 78k: oathbow, flaming burst shortsword +1, slippers of spider climbing, gloves of Dex +4, buckler shield +2, then smaller stuff (potions, wand of cure light, mithral shirt).
8. Cleric has gear worth 6k: half-plate +2, heavy steel shield +1.

If one of the party members was bound and unconscious, why weren't the others looking for him? And if said party member wasn't that far away, why didn't at least one of the PC's go to see if they could help?

The party left two unconscious party members on the current level of the tower when they proceeded to the top level. There was no need to "search for them" as the party knew exactly where they were. Going to see if they could help is actually the current discussion.

 

[moritheil]

If you expressed that these things would happen (or were possible) beforehand, then the player complaints seem ill-founded. But if you did not, then they seem legitimate.

I generally tell my players that their characters will be killed if the situation is appropriate. It fits with my "simulation" style of DMing (as a rule, I roll in the open and don't fake results.) On the other extreme, if players come in from a background of Monty Haul experiences and a DM TPKs them without warning, anyone should be able to see the complaints coming.

Complaints are a product of where you stand on that spectrum, and what their expectations are.