Bad Paladin... or My First Paladin thread...

[Mallus]

I usually avoid these threads, so naturally its time for me to start one...

I've been thinking about playing my first Paladin, but I couldn't imagine a paladin that I'd want to roleplay. So I started thinking; "What defines a Paladin?". The simple answer in games terms are a set of ablities (of course) and a rigid code of conduct. But what if it was faith that truly made a Paladin, not just adherence to a set rules. What if the code of conduct was much looser, or at least there was much greater leeway for a Paladin to give in to his or her fallen instincts, before they actually Fell.

So I'm working on Sir John Gaulstaff (I couldn't resist...); a venal knight, petty thief, liar, schemer, occasional whoremonger, and drunk, who happens to have unshakable faith and was, in fact, chosen by God to be a champion. He's constantly battling against/giving in to his base nature. He's weak-willed, but he believes, and his whole story arc is one redemption, a moving away from a faith-in-his-heart towards a fatih-in-action.

I don't see him as a fighter who eventually becomes a Paladin (the way to do this in the RAW). I envision him as someone who can do miracles with his own hands, and still struggles with the weakness of the flesh. The whole point is that he feels unworthy, not to mentioned frightened by, this blessing. But it doesn't go away; because the blessing isn't deserved its given freely by the grace of God (or Goddess).

So this is the Paladin I want to play... opinions?

 

[diaglo]

looks good so far, but you will need to expand him a little more for other everyday moral issues:

how does he feel about the death penalty?

what are his feelings concerning taxing the poor?

what can he keep? what does he donate to the church?

etc...


flesh him out even more. so when these things come up in game... you can play him as a real flesh and blood character and not just a characiture.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The original paladin, Holger Carlsen from Three Hearts and Three Lions, fondles a girl's breast while she's asleep.

 

[TheEvil]

From the descriptions of behaviour, lawful is not a big component of his alignment, and I wouldn't say good was either. Almost sounds like a good description for Chaotic Neutral.

First my die-hard roleplayer's advice: Start off as a fallen paladin. Assuming the game is not strict on the rules and that your goal is to play the character to redemption, then the GM may be willing to work with you on level advancement and special abilities. I could easily see the GM granting you use of some of your paladin abilities when you do the right thing as opposed to taking them away when you do the wrong one. There is a whole lot of caviots on this, including making the effort to work toward order and good rather then just the odd good deed. Even gods with infite lifespans get impatient.

For a short game, you are probably better off with a multi-classed Favored Soul/Fighter. Favored soul gives you the 'divine endorsement' without getting into what a paladin is. Anther option might be the alternate alignment paladins from UA.

 

[Voadam]

I usually avoid these threads, so naturally its time for me to start one...

I've been thinking about playing my first Paladin, but I couldn't imagine a paladin that I'd want to roleplay. So I started thinking; "What defines a Paladin?". The simple answer in games terms are a set of ablities (of course) and a rigid code of conduct. But what if it was faith that truly made a Paladin, not just adherence to a set rules. What if the code of conduct was much looser, or at least there was much greater leeway for a Paladin to give in to his or her fallen instincts, before they actually Fell.

So I'm working on Sir John Gaulstaff (I couldn't resist...); a venal knight, petty thief, liar, schemer, occasional whoremonger, and drunk, who happens to have unshakable faith and was, in fact, chosen by God to be a champion. He's constantly battling against/giving in to his base nature. He's weak-willed, but he believes, and his whole story arc is one redemption, a moving away from a faith-in-his-heart towards a fatih-in-action.

I don't see him as a fighter who eventually becomes a Paladin (the way to do this in the RAW). I envision him as someone who can do miracles with his own hands, and still struggles with the weakness of the flesh. The whole point is that he feels unworthy, not to mentioned frightened by, this blessing. But it doesn't go away; because the blessing isn't deserved its given freely by the grace of God (or Goddess).

So this is the Paladin I want to play... opinions?

Faith in D&D is easy "See that guy in the flaming chariot riding across the sky? He's Helios the God. When I as his priest pray to him I get supernatural abilities." It is no big thing when it is right in front of you.

So is your concept that he is a devoted servant of his LG god but is a base guy who doesn't really live up to the ideals? That can work but watch out you do no overtly evil act and don't GROSSLY violate the code.

 

[Mallus]

how does he feel about the death penalty?

His spent most of his life worrying that he'd get it... He thinks a man can't be trusted passing judgement on another, and will be unpleasantly surprised when common people ask him to do just that... and not as a noble, but as someone who should know God's Will.

what are his feelings concerning taxing the poor?

He's a poor, virually landless noble w/little income, so in his mind, he is 'the poor'. He has much sympathy for the downtrodden, and he's donated lavishly to the Church when he's been flush --and drunk. He's also stolen from for Church poorboxes...

what can he keep? what does he donate to the church?

He's almost always broke. Between his charity, drinking, gambling, and (occasional) whoring.

...you can play him as a real flesh and blood character and not just a characiture.

He's meant to be a characiture; Falstaff the Paladin... at least at first. I wanted a role that I could play straight off... and a cursing, foul-mouthed braggart who believes himself to be clever comes naturally to me...

Thanks for the questions, they help.

 

[Mallus]

Faith in D&D is easy "See that guy in the flaming chariot riding across the sky? He's Helios the God. When I as his priest pray to him I get supernatural abilities." It is no big thing when it is right in front of you.

From my understanding, the existence of God was just as certain throughout human history, certainly in the Medieval Europe I picture this guy coming from...

Modern-day rational skepticism over the existence of God is well, modern...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Mallus, let me offer the first dissenting opinion. I don't think your guy is a paladin, as I view them. This doesn't mean that he can't be in your campaign, but certainly that he couldn't be in mine. Gods don't hand out paladin abilities to anyone with faith. That's what clerics are. Paladins are the embodiment of a god's ideals. They're born as exemplars of their god's doctrine.

Give a paladin a myriad options, and he chooses the one his god would approve of, not because he has to choose it as a rule, but because his soul was made in such a way that it's the choice he wants to make. This is why fallen paladins are rare and terrible. To become one, they have to go against their natural instinct and willfully defy their god, and themselves. Rage usually leads to the most falls, rather than lust or larceny.

I like the concept you've come up with, Mallus. I simply don't believe the paladin class is the proper fit for it. *shrug* As you yourself no doubt know, though, the paladin class' flavor is hotly debated, so I'm sure many disagree with me.

 

[Voadam]

From my understanding, the existence of God was just as certain throughout human history, certainly in the Medieval Europe I picture this guy coming from...

Modern-day rational skepticism over the existence of God is well, modern...

Right, for those times and places where that belief was certain, faith alone still seems insufficient to make every random member of the populace qualify as a potential paladin.

Every peasant in medieval France had faith. When God called Joan of Arc answered.

Maybe I'm not understanding you, what is it about faith (which we assume is present) that connects to paladin status here. You say above that it is his faith that makes him a paladin, and not his day to day conduct which is base.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Mallus, let me offer the first dissenting opinion. I don't think your guy is a paladin, as I view them. This doesn't mean that he can't be in your campaign, but certainly that he couldn't be in mine. Gods don't hand out paladin abilities to anyone with faith. That's what clerics are. Paladins are the embodiment of a god's ideals. They're born as exemplars of their god's doctrine.

I tend to agree with Lord Pendragon on this issue. Paladins are supposed to be the paragon of lawfulness and goodness. While different cultures have different views on if a paladin can be celibate/chaste (an old thread from a few weeks back that I started!), I think larceny, drunkenness and whoring take it beyond paladinhood into being either a fighter or cleric, or a fighter/cleric.

I think anybody can aspire to paladinhood, and maybe this guy does sincerely, but it seems almost Quixotic to me that he believes he is one.