Bad Paladin... or My First Paladin thread...

[bodhi]

On a side note, a Blackguard who fell due to your guy might make a compelling villain.

Oooh. See Amadeus (the movie) for inspiration here. Tom Hulce as a drunken whoring lout who is nonetheless Touched By God (and who, unlike Mallus' concept, isn't trying to redeem himself at all), and F. Murray Abraham as the Blackguard-to-be who rails against the injustice of it all.

 

[doghead]

So I'm working on Sir John Gaulstaff (I couldn't resist...); a venal knight, petty thief, liar, schemer, occasional whoremonger, and drunk, who happens to have unshakable faith and was, in fact, chosen by God to be a champion. He's constantly battling against/giving in to his base nature. He's weak-willed, but he believes, and his whole story arc is one redemption, a moving away from a faith-in-his-heart towards a fatih-in-action.

I don't see him as a fighter who eventually becomes a Paladin (the way to do this in the RAW). I envision him as someone who can do miracles with his own hands, and still struggles with the weakness of the flesh. The whole point is that he feels unworthy, not to mentioned frightened by, this blessing. But it doesn't go away; because the blessing isn't deserved its given freely by the grace of God (or Goddess).

I like the concept. *shrug* As a DM, I'd allow it I think.

Edit: ThoughtBubble put it particularly well (and welcome back).

 

[OregonGM]

View from YADM (Yet Another DM)

As others have said, the most important thing here is going to be the DM. Speaking as one, I'd kill to have a few more players spend time getting this kind of emotional meat on their PCs. Not only would I allow it, I'd make sure I made it a point to design encounters around.
Frankly, things like "Divine Soul" (or whatever it was) irk me beyond belief. The entire "A class for every personality trait" movement seems to be a codified replacement for actual roleplaying anyway.

Player: My character is a Divine Soul. I plan on taking several levels of Alcoholic Letch and then starting Paladin around 5th as he comes to see the light.
Me: (eyes glazing over) Okay. Noon, Saturday. See you then.

OR

Player: My character is a Paladin who is coming to terms with his weaknesses. His noble moments come from helping the street rabble and odd bouts of drunken philosophy. A good guy with "bardic tastes", if you know what I mean. Think Peter Parker before coming to terms with what Ben meant with the "With great power comes . ." bit.
Me: (long pause) COOL! We're on for Satuday, but you want to drop by on Thursday or Friday? I have some ideas to really torment him before he starts "getting it."

 

[Mallus]

There is, as far I know, no God of Free Lunches...

Until you or another DM creates one. Then there is. If you'd like, I could recommend some reading material for inspiration (and no, I'm still not evangelizing... I'm just trying to be clever...)

 

[Mallus]

And yes, a lot of the people I play with have their jerk hats on while RPing.

See, I'm lucky in that regard. No-one does in the groups I play in. Nobody 'tries to get away with playing an evil character', that phrase doesn't have any meaning. People define characters and play them. Some are good, some feed their kidnap victims to sewer alligators... Different characters face different, appropriate challenges. That's it.

 

[Mallus]

Tom Hulce as a drunken whoring lout who is nonetheless Touched By God (and who, unlike Mallus' concept, isn't trying to redeem himself at all), and F. Murray Abraham as the Blackguard-to-be who rails against the injustice of it all.

That's the best description of Amadeus I've ever heard. Think I'll watch it before tomorrow's (oops, later today's) festivities...

 

[Starglim]

I'll agree with some of the others that this idea is too good to ban or to relegate to a rogue or cleric. The way I might handle it (and this will need the DM's agreement since the RAW don't allow paladins to multiclass) would be to give him a level of Paladin. He does not get another unless he makes real progress towards being a better person and serving the will of his God. Being a Paladin/Rogue or Paladin/Fighter shouldn't act as a punishment for taking an awkward concept, because it's no worse off mechanically if designed cleverly. Conversely there's a tangible measure of his advancement in piety and improved behaviour when he starts to gain more miraculous powers and divine protection.

Whoring, gambling and swearing might not do him great harm, depending on the tenets of his God. I would think that thievery from collection boxes is right over to the chaotic side though. Sir Gaulstaff might fall many times unless he finds a story reason to change some of his habits.

 

[Dyne]

I usually avoid these threads, so naturally its time for me to start one...

I've been thinking about playing my first Paladin, but I couldn't imagine a paladin that I'd want to roleplay. So I started thinking; "What defines a Paladin?". The simple answer in games terms are a set of ablities (of course) and a rigid code of conduct. But what if it was faith that truly made a Paladin, not just adherence to a set rules. What if the code of conduct was much looser, or at least there was much greater leeway for a Paladin to give in to his or her fallen instincts, before they actually Fell.

So I'm working on Sir John Gaulstaff (I couldn't resist...); a venal knight, petty thief, liar, schemer, occasional whoremonger, and drunk, who happens to have unshakable faith and was, in fact, chosen by God to be a champion. He's constantly battling against/giving in to his base nature. He's weak-willed, but he believes, and his whole story arc is one redemption, a moving away from a faith-in-his-heart towards a fatih-in-action.

I don't see him as a fighter who eventually becomes a Paladin (the way to do this in the RAW). I envision him as someone who can do miracles with his own hands, and still struggles with the weakness of the flesh. The whole point is that he feels unworthy, not to mentioned frightened by, this blessing. But it doesn't go away; because the blessing isn't deserved its given freely by the grace of God (or Goddess).

So this is the Paladin I want to play... opinions?

Hmmm. Well, I usually go by the whole "faith without works is dead" principle, which would make it impossible for a Paladin to be so base in nature. But, there are a few things that might help you out (forgive me if they've already been mentioned).

The Alternate Paladin in Unearthed Arcana lets you have a Chaotic Good Paladin. I don't personally own the book, but it sounds like it might be what you're looking for.

Or, you could check out the Divine Champion from Forgotten Realms, which focuses on serving a particular deity rather than a particular alignment.

Hope that helps any.

EDIT: Also, in the Forgotten Realms, it is possible for a Paladin to multiclass into certain classes depending on what deity he may serve. You might make him have a particular deity that would allow him to multiclass as a Rogue or something, or you may convince your DM to make up something special that would fit your character so that he can multiclass.

 

[Mallus]

Then I've been misunderstanding your position in this debate. From the very beginning, your argument has seemed to be "why can't my character concept be a part of the core paladin? Why doesn't my character concept fit into the archtypical paladin, as defined in the PH?" To which I've tried to respond as best I could.

Or I've been murky... I know this character isn't kosher under the RAW. And I wasn't suggesting that traditional Paladins should be replaced. I wanted to discuss what I thought was an interesting reinterpretation of Paladin, focused on God's grace, not personal virtue, for one specific character.

 

[Mallus]

I usually go by the whole "faith without works is dead" principle

I didn't mean to imply that Gaulstaff wouldln't do good works. In fact, I said he's quite charitable, and willing to lay down his life to protect the innocent and fight for righteouness.
He does goods works all the time.

He also, in moments of weakness --often while soused-- has stolen church poorboxes, planned/comitted inept robberies, boasted, lied through his teeth, and possibly comitted polygamy.