DerianCypher said:
Lets take for example our first dragon encounter.
We fought a white dragon (age unknown). The party consisted of a level 18 cleric, a level 18 rogue, a level 15 half-celestial psion and a lvl 15 half-dragon fighter/ranger.
We entered the dragons lair (we didn't know that the cave we were entering it's lair).
First error. The locale around a dragons lair -- regardless of dragon type -- should clearly indicate a LARGE predator lives in the area. Mind, not automatically and specifically indicate that a *dragon* lives there -- though a sharp eye and the right skills (Wilderness Lore, Knowledge: Dragons, etc) and/or a good Bardic Lore roll, should cue in on THAT: a shed scale here, a clawmark there, a faint, lingering odor in the area, and so on.
However, there should be an absolute and
abnormal absence of any animal life, and (depending on environment and relative breath weapon) even of vegetation. All the animals (at least those not smaller than a housecat) should have either been eaten by the predator, or frightened off by it.
The dragon wasn't expecting us and we weren't expecting it (long story). When we stumbled upon the dragon (it was sleeping) we entered combat. The dragon ran away for 1 (one)(uno) round and returned to combat. When it got back the dragon had 2 shields, 1 mage armor, hastex2, and protection from good/magic circle against goodx2 (FOR BOTH) up.
Nothing organic -- NOTHING -- awakes instantly rady for full action. If the dragon was sleeping, you should have gotten a surprise round on it, barring some IMO
very unusual circumstances. Which, of course, would have given you AO's on the dragon if it fled your threatened areas.
Furthr, one round -- even using standard magic items -- is simply NOT enough time to cast ... let me count ...
NINE spells. It could be accomplished if the dragon had a prepared place with Runes (FRCS) of the relevant spells, but that means the PLAYERS should then be able to gather those runes as treasure.
The only conceivable way I can think of for that to happen is, use of a TimeStop spell. And I can think of far better uses of TimeStop than the redundant spell use your DM chose.
Far better.
Further, multiple hastes will NOT stack. If weapons of SPEED don't stack with a single haste, a full second haste SPELL will hardly do so. So unless the dragon was using quicken spell ... no, wait, that wouldn't work either ... since Dragons cast as sorcerors, meaning, metamagics would require full-round casting times to operate (making quicken spell pointless for a dragon).
The psion spent it's time dispelling the ENTIRE battle, while the dragon ended up pulling off 3 actions a round. We eventually defeated the dragon(BARELY).
Three actions per round, eh? Sounds like the DM was stacking those haste spells. Point otu to him the technical illegality of that move, and then inform him you intend to do likewise yourselves. Only, don't stop at two haste spells ... gofor ten of 'em. At once. Per character.
Every encounter.
Needless to say we were taken aback by the fury of this dragon.
I'm not surprised. My own players tend to DREAD encounters with dragons when I'm GMing -- for good reason -- and I don't use such cheesy, munchkin-esque stunts as you described above. Rather, I just plain play the dragons as
inhumanly smart. One way is to always assume the dragon could anticipate almost anything the players can do, and thus, prepare for them "personally" ... even things I the GM didn't conceive of beforehand. After all, *I* (much to my regret) don't have an Intelligence ratable at 25 or more; many dragons DO.
Our next dragon we fought was a black dragon (again, age unknown).
Same party makeup except this time we are party level 24. We figured out by the end of the battle it had Mindblank(x3), Protection from Good(x3), Magic Circle Against Good(x3), Mage Armor, Shield(x2), Haste(x2), and mislead.
Honestly now, isn't this a bit excessive? My DM is doubling and tripling up on spells just to make the psion or cleric dispel it over and over throughout the battle.
Not only excessive, but stupid. The dragon could make better use of it's spells-per-day than casting redundant magicks JUST to dal with dispelling spellcasters.
Now I pose a question, is this too far? Would a dragon cast multiple spells on itself?
DC
Multiple spells, yes. Double-casting a given spell of GREAT improtance, probably. Treble-casting? No point to it; instead of trying so hard to preserve one tiny, small benefit ... the dragon would instead go for a RANGE of benefits, and come to rely on NONE of them. Strip one benefit away, and discover that you've barely scratched the surface. Strip NONE sway ... and the benefits, being all different, stack up to a higher cumulative benefit.
What the first encounter
should have done to enhance difficulty, is:
White dragon; immune to cold damage, can swim very well, still remarkably strong. It's lair should be in an ice cavern, with a "thinly" capped pool of preternaturally cold water (at the bottom of whichis it's actual horde, and a tunnel leading to an air pocket for storing any water-damaged items the dragon might be keeping).
The dragons first action should be to dive into the water (it should always sleep next to a hole in the ice); if th eplayers follow it, great, skip to the next pragraph. If not ... the dragon should sharge up, through the ice, right below the party members (one at a time if need be). The objective is to get them all into the water.
While in the water, they (of course) take exposure damage; water just above the freezing point (which can be quite low, for SALT water, heh!) is
extremely lethal. IIRC, maybe an hour's exposure in a MODERN protective suit ... is still lethal. In Medieval armor, without especial magicks toprotect one's self? Ten, twenty rounds. Tops.
Now, the trick is this: once all the PC's are in the water, the dragon LEAVEs the water -- and directs it's incredibly cold breath weapon at each and every hole in the surface of the water (and Cone of Cold or similar spells, if need be). This has the effect of SEALING those holes. If the passageway to the air pocket (mentioned above) is hidden or otherwise sealed ... now, any characters without means to breathe underwater, will soon enough expire, unless they can breach the ice in time.
Meanwhile, the dragon attacks a WALL which previously held back another large volume of near-frozen water, flooding the TOP part of the room with water -- which fact the players should not know.
This entire strategy can be enhanced with a few "pets" -- bound elementals, frigid-water-native monsters, and the like. A couple lightning bolts into the water (beforeit's sealed completely off) will lso be remarkably effective; sonic attacks underwater should, in truth, do more damage than they would do in air.
And that doesn't require a lot of brains, and (if the party willingly jumps in after the dragon, or clusters close together wiating for it to surface again) ... not one single spell.
Now, as for the black dragon ...
It's lair should be filled with water, too. Being swamp dragons, however ... their pets are likely to be things like giant crocodiles or alligators; giant leeches; and so on. And the water will be murky ... I'm thinking, a quarter inch visibility, on a GOOD day. The dragon, rather than piling "buffs" on itself and going toe-to-toe with the entire party, should make surprise attacks.
The terrain in the lair should be comprised of multiple "islets" of "dry" land -- mudpiles, really -- surrounded by that murky water. Deep channels and deeper pools should be the rule; if the dragon can cast Wall of Stone, it can use that spell to create tubes of open space (sealed to prevent silting up, antered and exited with Passwall); these tubes, underwater of course, allow the dragon to duck into and out of even LANDLOCKED pools, with relative ease.
The concept is, the dragon pops up, grabs someone (a grapple attack, or a waterborne parallel to "snatch"), and ... dives back under water. It only has to grappel the chosen victim until it drowns, and/or attack it until the victim runs out of HP. The dragon should NOT surface until that one victim is dead, or the dragon needs to release him or her (preferably at great depth) in order to recuperate -- remember that dragons, too, can use magic items (a fifty-ton boulder, with a single "Rune of Heal, 5x/day" on it, should suffice -- see the FRCS PrCl "Runecaster" for details).
In general, picture star Wars, and the trash compactor ... remember the thing that attacked luke? Turn the compactor into a swampy lair a half-mile in diameter (or more); turn the snake-thing in the compactor into a hundred-foot-plus long black dragon ... and you're beginning to get the picture.
Of course, with the Web Spell (nothing says it won't work underwater), released victims might not bob to the surface immediately. That's another evil trick; give the Dragon an item of Free Action, and the Web can be cast ahead of time, then while flying THROUGH the web ... the dragon just lets go of it's current victim. Heh.
In general, "smart dragons" don't rely on buff spells, they pick the locationof their battles, and have a strategy to hand for just about ANY eventuality. I could even see a dragon laughing it's way througha battle in it's completely, permanently, Antimagic Field encapsulated lair. Dragons, after all, would really only lose use of their breath weapon (if that); dragon HUNTERS, on the other hand ... would lose almost every advantage they had.
That places the advantage squarely in the dragon's claws ... probably, along with the entire party.
