[BADD] DM taking it too far?

[wolff96]

Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

Ok, now this sounds great, except that the penalties for frostbite and exposure aren't as lethal as you portray. Extreme cold or exposure force a Fort save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) every 10 minutes. That's 100 rounds before a Fort save. Now, it says under exposure that if you fail you take subdual damage, and that if you do, you're considered fatigued. You could push that all the way to exhausted, and they'd be -6 Str and Dex, and 1/2 move.

Actually, the problem is that there are rules for abyssal heat but no rules for exposure to sub-zero temperatures immersed in water.

Warning: the following is a house rule. But for a circumstance like this, I would go with one save per ROUND, starting at DC 15. I would stay with the subdual damage (at 1d6).

Also, they can hold their breath for Conx2, which should be enough time to breach the ice.......seeing as how ice has 3hp/inch of thickness.

Supernatural breath weapons should make pretty thick ice... but even above that, how long does it take to make a hole large enough to crawl through? Even at 3hp/inch, it would take a while to make a big hole.

 

[Mulkhoran]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

Actually, the problem is that there are rules for abyssal heat but no rules for exposure to sub-zero temperatures immersed in water.

Warning: the following is a house rule. But for a circumstance like this, I would go with one save per ROUND, starting at DC 15. I would stay with the subdual damage (at 1d6).



Supernatural breath weapons should make pretty thick ice... but even above that, how long does it take to make a hole large enough to crawl through? Even at 3hp/inch, it would take a while to make a big hole.

Of course, you're right. There *is* a serious lack of rules pertaining to such extreme circumstances.

On the other hand, I suspect that the environmental effects were deliberately kept to a minimum, to maximize the impact of what were intended to be the game's main challenges. Specifically Monsters, Magic and Traps. Which is understandable, given past fiascos such as the "Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue" vorpal sickle incident..........

Like your houserule, by the way. Flawless logical extension of the existing rules. I think I may have use for it *very* soon.....heh heh heh

 

[mmu1]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

Actually, the problem is that there are rules for abyssal heat but no rules for exposure to sub-zero temperatures immersed in water.

Warning: the following is a house rule. But for a circumstance like this, I would go with one save per ROUND, starting at DC 15. I would stay with the subdual damage (at 1d6).

Supernatural breath weapons should make pretty thick ice... but even above that, how long does it take to make a hole large enough to crawl through? Even at 3hp/inch, it would take a while to make a big hole.

So a typical person is likely to loose consciousness from the cold after 6 seconds in freezing water, and drown?

The cold equivalent of abyssal heat are temperatures low enough that gasses start turning to liquids and solids. Very cold water, while much better at leeching body heat away than cold air, doesn't even come close.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'd have the water require a saving throw each round to avoid some str or con damage, personally.

 

[Berk]

no offense but one round isn't long enough for a fort save. we are talking about heroes and such here. the average person can survive for up to a minute in sub-freezing waters without little more then a chill. just look at the polar bear clubs in north america. they jump into icy water in freezing temperatures and swim around like it's a sunny day.

 

[Pax]

Originally posted by KaeYoss
You never intend dragons to be killed, do you? Nice tactics, though!

Oh, if I put the PC's up against a dragon, I plan for it to get killed. However, I plan to make it an event the players will remember for YEARS.

Mind, I also bump the effective CR's of dragons up a lot (by about 50%), based largely on STATS, let alone tactics -- so any party that survives, is WELL rewarded in XP and (if they can find it, and then GET it) loot.

Originally posted by Mulkhoran
Despite how much I love your descriptions of what the area should look like, I think the more intelligent dragons would avoid this. Advertising your presence in an area is rarely the path to gaining the upper hand.

Actually the emptiness around a dragons' lair isn't the result of any intentional action on the partof the dragon.

First off, even dragons have to eat, and it's simply not wise to make oneself fly hundreds of miles before grabbing dinner, if one doesn't have to.

Secondly, the mere SCENT of a dragon is likely to frighten off most prey animals -- deer, elk, wild cattle, or whatever. Lesser predators will follow the prey, even if they aren't especially unhappy living in a dragon's hunting grounds. And that scent, after centuries of living in/under, and flying over, a given area ... will be there, evenif not to the strength a HUMAN could readily detect.

Thirdly, and lastly, the "area around the lair" I'm talking about is, for -miles- around (in the case of larger dragons especially). For a huge, ancient dragon, it might be mroe than a day's travel from where the low animal population is nooticable, to the lair itself.

Other people on this thread have already covered what the dragon could and couldn't do with actions and rules and whatnot. I just wanted to stop here and say that this sounds like a *great* way to cause discord and start an argument.

Or point out to the GM, that such actions would be more harmful than helpful in the long run, for that campaign. It only causes an arugment and discord if one or the other side decides to be an ass during the process.

Ok, now this sounds great, except that the penalties for frostbite and exposure aren't as lethal as you portray. Extreme cold or exposure force a Fort save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) every 10 minutes. That's 100 rounds before a Fort save. Now, it says under exposure that if you fail you take subdual damage, and that if you do, you're considered fatigued. You could push that all the way to exhausted, and they'd be -6 Str and Dex, and 1/2 move.

The exposure-to-cold rules the books cover is for beign in AIR, and being exposed. Not water. Water is a wondrous thermal "sink" ... it'll suck the heat -- and life -- right out of you, given half the chance.

IIRC, in the North Sea, even with specially-designed suits, Oil Rig crewmen forced to abandon their derrick -- say, due to fire -- have anhour otr two to live. That's with modern, battery-heated, space-age-insulated flotation/thermal-protection suits.

Try it in chainmail. Aside form the need to float and/or breathe, I suspect you'd be dead -- or very near to it -- within a couple minutes. Tops.

Me, I was thinking, 1 temporary Con damage per round; hit zero, and it's the long dirt-nap for you. After all, 25-degree saltwater isn't terribly much fun to swim in. OFC, protection against cold damage -- or a ring of warmth, etc -- would help IMMENSELY.

Also, they can hold their breath for Conx2, which should be enough time to breach the ice.......seeing as how ice has 3hp/inch of thickness.

Well, see -- deep water. Most weapons don't work so well (a) underwater, and (b) without the wielder being able to stand on a stable surface. 8) And remember, the ice is thick enough to have the strength to support the dragon's weight. 6 or 8 inches thich should take, oh ... maybe 2-3 rounds to hack through, under the circumstances. Plenty of time for the dragon to flood the upper chamber ...

Wouldn't a mass volume of water like this suddenly impacting the aforementioned ice sheet shatter it? Unless the ice was sufficiently thick, that is.......

Not really. First the ice is thick/strong ehnough for the dragon to walk about on it. Second, the water is coming in SIDEWAYS, not from above, so it runs ACROSS the floor, into the far wall ... never hitting he ice floor face-on.

Lightning bolt doesn't do that. It probably should have some such effect, though, such as morphing to an area effect when hitting the water.

Some things from prior editions are worth keeping. In 2E, IIRC, Lightning Bolt went to a fireball-type area, once it hit water (at the mage's fingertips if he was UNDER water, ouchie!).

Originally posted by KaeYoss
We're not talking about rules, we're talking about tactics. The DM has the huge advantage of being able to set the stage. If you give an enemy with a CR equal to or higher than the party's level to much circumstantial advantages (like terrain, preparation for the fight, being fresh while the party is already battered), they will succumb to the encounter!

I balance final EL -- including adjustments for tactics -- against the party's net average level. So if one presumes the tactics described (and my own automatic 50% increase for all Dragon CRs) would double the effective EL, and it's an 18th level party ... the dragon's innage CR will be roughly 9, give or take, as listed in the MM.

Orignally posted by Berk
no offense but one round isn't long enough for a fort save. we are talking about heroes and such here. the average person can survive for up to a minute in sub-freezing waters without little more then a chill. just look at the polar bear clubs in north america. they jump into icy water in freezing temperatures and swim around like it's a sunny day.

Not arctic waters, and not for that long. Jumping into the Bering Strait, without protective gear, is a suicide attempt.

I've DONE the Polar Bear thing, as a kid. That water isn't sub-freezing ... it's about 40 degrees usually. Also, for the most part, most of yoru body -- from the waist up -- isn't immersed for any length of time. TOTAL immersion would be a different matter.

We're talking about maybe 10 to 20 degree saltwater (saltwater specifically, or it'd be solid ice at those temperatures), for people in clothes and/or metal armor. MAJOR, near-instant, loss of body heat. Be glad I don't advocate modelling the thermal shock effects ...

 

[doktorstick]

Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

You never intend dragons to be killed, do you? Nice tactics, though!

Not a member of BADD, but I agree with their tenets. I always hated it when DMs made dragons land next to the two-handed dragonslayer sword-wielding fighter to "duke it out." Pathetic.

Creating challenging dragon encounters usually involves lower CR dragons than the level rating for the players. In general driving away a dragon is much easier than killing one; that is almost always the rule rather than the exception.

Most of the tactics the dragon uses should be considered as traps, particularly those setup ahead of time (e.g., Pax's white dragon wall with water behind it). Traps have CR ratings. Combining a dragon with tactics like that significantly raises the EL. You'll have a weaker dragon and several traps, but it will make for an interesting (and survivable) battle.

Keep this in mind when devising dragon encounters and it will work out a LOT better; much fewer TPKs and powerful dead dragons.

/ds

 

[zorlag]

Lightning bolts underwater

I'm thinking of converting area of effect of lightning bolt from line to cone (close range) underwater. Seems reasonable, right? Also +4 to save DC against sonic and concussive attacks underwater.

Z.

 

[Berk]

Not arctic waters, and not for that long. Jumping into the Bering Strait, without protective gear, is a suicide attempt.

I've DONE the Polar Bear thing, as a kid. That water isn't sub-freezing ... it's about 40 degrees usually. Also, for the most part, most of yoru body -- from the waist up -- isn't immersed for any length of time. TOTAL immersion would be a different matter.

We're talking about maybe 10 to 20 degree saltwater (saltwater specifically, or it'd be solid ice at those temperatures), for people in clothes and/or metal armor. MAJOR, near-instant, loss of body heat. Be glad I don't advocate modelling the thermal shock effects ...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Don't confuse roleplaying a fantasy game where you are a hero with how things work in the real world.

only reason I even mentioned anything about the real world is that people do do it and live. And yes there are people that have stayed under below freezing waters just because they can. They do it for minutes at a time and live with no ill effects or anything. It is done in a real world, by a human. Now if a human can do it in the real world, I'd say an above average hero can do it in a fantasy world.

 

[Pax]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Don't confuse roleplaying a fantasy game where you are a hero with how things work in the real world.

Striving for verisimilitude is never a failing.

only reason I even mentioned anything about the real world is that people do do it and live. And yes there are people that have stayed under below freezing waters just because they can. They do it for minutes at a time and live with no ill effects or anything. It is done in a real world, by a human. Now if a human can do it in the real world, I'd say an above average hero can do it in a fantasy world. [/B]

The people who can handle such extreme conditions (a) aren;t doing so while a gigantic, intelligent, flying, magical lizard is tryng to eat them; they use conscious biofeedback to regulate their metabolism; trust me, that takes focus and concentration at a level nearly impossible to maintain when you're highly stressed ... i.e., in combat.

And I see nothign wrong with a Fortitude save (DC 15 or 20), every round after the first, or take a point of temporary constitution damage.

You (IIRC) say people survive immersion with "only a chill" -- I say you've never BEEN immersed in icy water, nor known someone who was.

Anyone of significant level (remember, I was describing an alternate setup for an encounter stated to be for an 18th level party), especially if they have an above-average constitution, isn't likely to be more than weakened by an immersion of ten or so rounds; they'd drown before they died from hypothermia.

But it'd take them time, and/or magic, to throw off the lingering effects of having their core body temperature lowered that far, that fast.