[BADD] DM taking it too far?

[DerianCypher]

Did I mention we encountered the Black Dragon in a desert?

 

[kreynolds]

The rules support it: afaik it's stated with all those special rules.

I got stuck in a frickin' seminar for work all day long, and I come home only to find that this has been taken care of for me. I love it!

 

[Pax]

Did I mention we encountered the Black Dragon in a desert?

Now, THAT is just SILLY.

I can see a canny black dragon making it's lair in a bog SURROUNDED by desert -- or a bog/swamp/etc that was in caverns UNDER the desert.

But lairing in desert? Christ. Black Dragons at least want WATER -- I hope it was at least lairing in an OASIS ... ?

In general, referring to the vote called for ... I put three thumbs down (my left thumb, my right thumb, and the first thumb I can chop off of the DM in question ... with a spoon ... a DULL spoon ... !)

 

[kreynolds]

with a spoon

"Why a spoon, cousin?"

"'Cause it's dull, you twit! It'll hurt more!"

I love that part.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

The dragons first action should be to dive into the water (it should always sleep next to a hole in the ice); if th eplayers follow it, great, skip to the next pragraph. If not ... the dragon should sharge up, through the ice, right below the party members (one at a time if need be). The objective is to get them all into the water.............

You never intend dragons to be killed, do you? Nice tactics, though!

 

[Numion]

The psion spent it's time dispelling the ENTIRE battle, while the dragon ended up pulling off 3 actions a round. We eventually defeated the dragon(BARELY).

This bit here stinks. The psion had probably a better caster level than Mr. Dragon, so how could he spend the entire battle dispelling? A single greater dispelling should take out most of the dragons spells, since they (whites) generally have a lower caster level.

Unless, of course, there were some additional Sorc levels on the lizard or some such. But the premise of the battles in weak dragon vs. characters of apropriate level is that the dragon better adjust to fighting without buffs, since he likely won't have any after one Greater Dispelling.

 

[Jens]

Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

You never intend dragons to be killed, do you? Nice tactics, though!

A creatore which has surviver 100+ battles never intend to be killed. BADD, remember?

Still, Monsters should follow the rules just like PCs. But! DMs Have a huge job trying to keep up with all th things a party *may* do -- so if he hasn't prepared for a certain encaouter, exect it to be 'off the cuff' with reasonable approxmations to the preparations the opposition might have active (or prepared).

As a DMm, I would not let a PC party overwhelm an dragon I only intend to be there as a campaign device (Mmbe in 5-10 levels but not now ). If they try, they will be slaughtered--even if I haven't specifically picked its' spells. Messy? Yes. Fair? Gimme a break - u got a chance to back down.

Bottom line: Who knows what magics the wyrm had going for it? Something which allowed it to cast three spells per round? Rrrright, that's an epic spell, isn't it? (afaik, nothing's barred there?)

In other words: Dragons, Demons, Devils (maybe this should be called 3D? ) and other 'old' magic-using opponents should be expected to have weird magick running...

 

[Mulkhoran]

Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

First error. The locale around a dragons lair -- regardless of dragon type -- should clearly indicate a LARGE predator lives in the area.

Despite how much I love your descriptions of what the area should look like, I think the more intelligent dragons would avoid this. Advertising your presence in an area is rarely the path to gaining the upper hand.

Nothing organic -- NOTHING -- awakes instantly rady for full action.

And very, VERY few dragons ever let you get anywhere near them when they're asleep.

Three actions per round, eh? Sounds like the DM was stacking those haste spells. Point otu to him the technical illegality of that move, and then inform him you intend to do likewise yourselves. Only, don't stop at two haste spells ... gofor ten of 'em. At once. Per character. Every encounter.

Other people on this thread have already covered what the dragon could and couldn't do with actions and rules and whatnot. I just wanted to stop here and say that this sounds like a *great* way to cause discord and start an argument.

While in the water, they (of course) take exposure damage; water just above the freezing point (which can be quite low, for SALT water, heh!) is extremely lethal. IIRC, maybe an hour's exposure in a MODERN protective suit ... is still lethal. In Medieval armor, without especial magicks toprotect one's self? Ten, twenty rounds. Tops.

Now, the trick is this: once all the PC's are in the water, the dragon LEAVEs the water -- and directs it's incredibly cold breath weapon at each and every hole in the surface of the water (and Cone of Cold or similar spells, if need be). This has the effect of SEALING those holes. If the passageway to the air pocket (mentioned above) is hidden or otherwise sealed ... now, any characters without means to breathe underwater, will soon enough expire, unless they can breach the ice in time.

Ok, now this sounds great, except that the penalties for frostbite and exposure aren't as lethal as you portray. Extreme cold or exposure force a Fort save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) every 10 minutes. That's 100 rounds before a Fort save. Now, it says under exposure that if you fail you take subdual damage, and that if you do, you're considered fatigued. You could push that all the way to exhausted, and they'd be -6 Str and Dex, and 1/2 move.

Also, they can hold their breath for Conx2, which should be enough time to breach the ice.......seeing as how ice has 3hp/inch of thickness.

Good deathtrap for a low/low-mid level party for sure, but ones above, say 6th level could readily overcome this challenge.

Meanwhile, the dragon attacks a WALL which previously held back another large volume of near-frozen water, flooding the TOP part of the room with water -- which fact the players should not know.

Wouldn't a mass volume of water like this suddenly impacting the aforementioned ice sheet shatter it? Unless the ice was sufficiently thick, that is.......

A couple lightning bolts into the water (beforeit's sealed completely off) will lso be remarkably effective; sonic attacks underwater should, in truth, do more damage than they would do in air.

Lightning bolt doesn't do that. It probably should have some such effect, though, such as morphing to an area effect when hitting the water.


These *are* spiffy tactics, though.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: Re: Re: Re: [BADD] DM taking it too far?

A creatore which has surviver 100+ battles never intend to be killed. BADD, remember?

I'm not talking about the creature's intentions, but the DM's. And depending on campaign stile the characters will have survived 100+ battles themselves....

Still, Monsters should follow the rules just like PCs.

We're not talking about rules, we're talking about tactics. The DM has the huge advantage of being able to set the stage. If you give an enemy with a CR equal to or higher than the party's level to much circumstantial advantages (like terrain, preparation for the fight, being fresh while the party is already battered), they will succumb to the encounter!

As a DMm, I would not let a PC party overwhelm an dragon I only intend to be there as a campaign device (Mmbe in 5-10 levels but not now ). If they try, they will be slaughtered--even if I haven't specifically picked its' spells. Messy? Yes. Fair? Gimme a break - u got a chance to back down.

Fine with me. Just make sure the party knows that dragons are powerful IYC. And never put them in a situation where they think they have to slaughter the dragon - for you'll probably send the party to their doom, especially since escape might very well be no alternative with a dragon.

Bottom line: Who knows what magics the wyrm had going for it? Something which allowed it to cast three spells per round? Rrrright, that's an epic spell, isn't it? (afaik, nothing's barred there?)

Yea, but it has to be epic for that.

In other words: Dragons, Demons, Devils (maybe this should be called 3D? ) and other 'old' magic-using opponents should be expected to have weird magick running...

But make sure it is known that those creatures have stuff far above their CR - and that no PC could ever achieve (and I know from experience that nothing's more annoying than a DM who "invents" stuff the PC's may not use).

 

[drowdude]

Was one of the three action per round always a melee attack?

If so the dragon may have been using the spell Rapid Strikes from Dragon #275 (I think). That spell allows an extra partial attack every round, and doesnt specify whether or not it stacks with Haste.

Just a possibility...