Badwrongfun & unintentional elitism...

[Asmor]

I should point out before anyone gets carried away that arguing about pointless things on ENW is a bit of an in-joke between fusangite and I.

We're all good here.

Arguing about pointless things with someone on an internet forum is an in-joke between the two of you?

Wow. That's like saying breathing the Earth's atmosphere and exhaling carbon dioxide is an in-joke between me and my friend.

 

[Hairfoot]

there are certain ways of playing the game that please very few, and certain other ways that please most players, but even so those aren't intrinsically good because of that.

I agree. I often get caught up in badwrongfun debates because I explicitly like low-power, rules light adventures which take place on a mortal scale.

Epic sagas with god-like characters wielding magical artifacts against hordes of demons in hell are not for me. I find it all a bit tacky. However, for many people the whole point of a fantasy adventure, limited only by imagination, is to be grand and, well, epic.

On the other hand, I can fully understand why people would think I'm dumb for preferring to run a downtrodden soldier PC in a small, dirty border war somewhere in the arse-end of the Realms. There's simply no accounting for taste.

 

[fusangite]

I just wanted to say that it's been a few months since I posted to ENW and I'd forgotten how witty people are around here. Thanks Asmor, Princess and Your.

 

[Desdichado]

That's like saying breathing the Earth's atmosphere and exhaling carbon dioxide is an in-joke between me and my friend.

I was about to write a post blaming you for global warming, but this being ENWorld I thought I better not.

 

[Desdichado]

fusangite: I'm not sure that comparing D&D to canon works in today's environment. With the presence of Core vs. hordes of splatbooks, Kenzer's "official" D&D license, Paizo's stuff in Dragon Magazine, and all that to say nothing of OGL content, who's the arbiter of what is or isn't D&D?

The whole point of canon is that a final authority whom everyone (more or less) recognizes says "this stuff is in, and this stuff isn't" which is not the case for D&D. Let's say those fumble rules were out of Unearthed Arcana or a Dragon Magazine article; which for all I know they may be. Are they now deviating from D&D because they deviate from "Core?"

 

[fusangite]

fusangite: I'm not sure that comparing D&D to canon works in today's environment. With the presence of Core vs. hordes of splatbooks, Kenzer's "official" D&D license, Paizo's stuff in Dragon Magazine, and all that to say nothing of OGL content, who's the arbiter of what is or isn't D&D?

Actually, I think it's pretty analogous to the systems I was using.

In religion, there are a few core canonical texts; orbiting around them are respected declarations that are quasi-canonical -- think Mormonism's statement on the family or Catholicism's Humanae Vitae; at the next orbit out are the opinions of respected individuals like Talmage's Jesus the Christ or St. Augustine's City of God; and so on. In law, similarly, there are the canonical texts like the Constitution; the next orbit out there are things like the Federalist Papers; and so on.

Large systems with a central canon and concentric circles of quasi-canonical and authoritative documents are precisely analogous to the RPG situation you describe.

The whole point of canon is that a final authority whom everyone (more or less) recognizes says "this stuff is in, and this stuff isn't" which is not the case for D&D.

If this isn't going on in D&D, I'm kind of baffled by the differences between the OGL and D20 licenses or the application of the term "core."

Let's say those fumble rules were out of Unearthed Arcana or a Dragon Magazine article; which for all I know they may be. Are they now deviating from D&D because they deviate from "Core?"

As I was saying before, a continuum-based approach is more appropriate here and avoids these kinds of binaries. In a continuum-based model, these variants are a few inches along on the miles-long path that terminates with the nitrous and the finger paint.

 

[Asmor]

I was about to write a post blaming you for global warming, but this being ENWorld I thought I better not.

I do fart a lot.

Safety.

 

[barsoomcore]

These variants are a few inches along on the miles-long path that terminates with the nitrous and the finger paint.

And if we don't get started NOW, we'll never get there!

 

[Desdichado]

Large systems with a central canon and concentric circles of quasi-canonical and authoritative documents are precisely analogous to the RPG situation you describe.

OK. Alright. FINE.

You're right.

If this isn't going on in D&D, I'm kind of baffled by the differences between the OGL and D20 licenses or the application of the term "core."

I'm kinda baffled by them too, in part because it's never been consistently applied, IMO, and in part because of the paradigm I described earlier where I reject the notion that WotC (or TSR or anyone else) can apply labels of canon to the game that I must accept. Maybe I'm just an old school gaming sectarian.

 

[WayneLigon]

I am somewhat of an elitist because I have seen people who, even though they were indeed to all outward appearances having fun with D&D as they were playing it, had more fun when exposed to other play styles. They simply never had been exposed to the DMing style that suited their tastes.

For instance I've met a few people who simply didn't know D&D could be played in other ways than they'd been taught to play it or observed it being played. Once exposed to other play styles they were amazed, and subsequently stayed on with roleplaying as a hobby instead of dropping it.

So, Asmor, I think it would still be advantageous for you to show them different styles of play so that the ones that best fit that style can gravitate to the game they wish to play. It also never hurts to have some kind of DM seminar or at least collect some Dungeoncraft articles into a handout or buy a couple copies of Robin Laws book on Gamemastering, D&D for Dummies, and Shelly wosname's book so that people can be exposed to different styles of DMing - and realize that there are different styles of DMing and that it's OK for there be be different styles of DMing. Poor DMing is in my estimation probably the #1 reason why people ultimately leave the hobby.