D&D 5E Balance of the College of Whispers Bard

[Mort]

I have a college of swords bards in my campaign (currently 5th level) - a much more martial bard type than the college of whispers.

Though he does ok, he can't keep up with the damage of the BM fighter in the group - but he doesn't have to.

As a full caster he adds a lot more than just damage. He can buff (heroism - though less used now), de-buff (bane - a remarkably underrated spell) and now with access to hypnotic pattern, takes battlefield control to a whole other level (earlier levels he would use sleep, very, very effective at lower levels). He has access to other spells, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Though, thinking about it, he also uses heat metal - that allows pretty good damage dealing (plus other benefits) right there.

Frankly, if he had all that and was keeping up in the weapon damage dealing department, the class would be way overpowered.

edit: and I didn't even mention the ability to grant inspiration dice. The bard has a lot going on outside of dealing weapon damage.

 

[jayoungr]

If every encounter is a combat, then any player that is not optimized for combat will feel less useful.

I don't think this is the problem. The player actually mentioned during this conversation that he's really looking forward to the next adventure, which I've already hinted is going to be a heist. Still, it's always a good thing to bear in mind.

Have the guard see monsters in the shadows and go chase them, believing them to be a greater threat than the players, or the noble believe that his court is full of spies and that he needs the characters close by to protect him, or the bugbear chieftain see signs that his minions will turn on him to bargain for their own safety and begin attacking his own men.

I like these ideas. Steals for future use.

2) Why is the player so concerned with saving their resources? Bards at that level can get lots of inspiration, which can be used either to attack with their psychic blade or to support by granting it to other players.

Not sure. We have another player who tends to blow his entire set of resources early and run out by the end of a session, and the bard player did mention that he didn't want to be like "that other guy," but still, four "smites" per short rest seems pretty good to me. (I just double-checked, and the PC has CHA 18.)

not after level 5. They recover on short rests at that point.

I wonder whether the player has missed that detail. I should ask him.

 

[Blue]

I play a high level bard. I can be the MVP of a combat scene often. I am abysmal compared to the rest of the party with dealing damage.

Seriously, you're playing a full caster who also has a bunch of other abilities. If they really want to focus on weapon damage,t hey should have picked one of the weapon-focused subclasses.

Collect of swords, coincidentally, is powered by the same bardic inspirations. At 12th I'm going to assume a 20 CHR, so that's five uses per short rest. That's not just "save for emergencies" numbers. If he's leaving those on the table too often because he's saving them, that's not a rules problem. That's 25d6 more damage per short rest.

The bard spell is fantastic - for playing a bard. Damage dealing is not the top of their list. Sure, Animate Object or Polymorph can do damage, but the combat-oriented parts of the spell list are focused much more around crowd control and debuffs.

EDIT: Just saw your comment about 18 CHR. My first thought is that it was unusual for your prime ability to be less than 20 after three ASIs. So many things trigger off of it, including spell attack and DCs. But it's intentional, as well as the rapier usage, which makes me wonder: does the player really want to play a shadows bard? Would they have been happier with a different class that let them be social and spooky?

 

[5ekyu]

Some things to bear in mind:
- The bard is not the best damage-dealer of the classes, and the Whispers bard is not the best damage dealer of the bard subclasses. If your player is comparing their performance using damage done as a measure, they are likely to come up short if the party has GMW fighters, Smite-happy paladins, or pyromaniac sorcerors etc.

- The bard is one of the best support classes however, and on hard fights that difference will make itself clear. On easy fights, where all that matters is how many monsters each character killed, they aren't going to show their strengths. On difficult or tactical fights, the Bard's ability to keep their own party in the fight and mess with the opposition makes them way more valuable than just another melee attack/round.

- The bard is also extremely effective in the social pillar so, unless your game is very combat-focused, will probably end up overshadowing many of the other characters for a reasonable part of the game.

That said: Assuming that your player's bard has hit Cha 20 by now, they have 5 inspiration dice every short rest. If they're also casting some spells in combat as well, they can probably use Psychic blades every time that they hit in a standard adventuring day. Psychic blades is also likely the most effective use for bardic inspiration in terms of damage.

Lastly, Shadow Lore will not make that much difference to the bard's effectiveness in combat. At best it might take one combatant out of the fight. The victim isn't generally going to fight alongside the bard, and might even be spurred to kill the bard if they think that they could do so quickly, before the bard could reveal their secret.

Yup.

My group of players has valor bard, lore bard, barbarian, ranger and druid. Current level is 8th with 9th only a few sessions away.

The high damage dealers are the latter three but the first two pretty much are the ones that really drive the outcomes of the big fights. Last major fight the early hypnotic pattern and late confusion were key to the victory and of vourse the inspirations kept the hitters up and striking in the meantime.

If those bards also matched the striking output... that would be be good overall.