Balanced and Effective Spell Point Systems
- Thread starter nikolai
- Start date
Any point based magic system is going to appear as a power up because of flexibility that I think it gives the player, UA is not nuch different from any other, such as Elements of Magic, EverQuest, AU, it all comes down to the flavor of your game.
UA spell point system has some built in balances such as spending points to increase damage that you would normally get from level increase.
UA spell point system has some built in balances such as spending points to increase damage that you would normally get from level increase.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Unearthed Arcana IS the Psionic system, basically. 
UA powers things up, but it's very very subtle...you shouldn't even have to re-tailor encounters...basically it does it in these ways:
Way A: # of High Level Spells
Basically, you can cast your highest level spells more often under the UA Spell Point system. This means that your lower-level spells more rarely get used, and your higher-level spells get used more often...you as a DM can't prepare for that 'only one Wish per day' thing, because they may be able to cast it two or three times, if they need to, when they get it. This is a minor power-up, since most encounters are based around the capability of spellcasters, rather than the number of spells -- by the time a character can cast Limited Wish, all the critters of that CR take that Limited Wish into account, so it doesn't so much matter how much they can cast it. However this does mean that the spellcaster could blow through one or two encounters, and then be reduced to thunking things with a quarterstaff for the next three hours, too....and if you included a 'boss' encounter, that could throw things for a loop. But it's just something you need to be aware of, rather than balance against -- just make sure your PC's know that lower level spells still have their use, and drain the lower level resources before you dip into their high stuff, to make sure they can't use their high stuff very often (if you start with a small encounter, the spellcaster will likely cast a spell or two for fun, and that means less major spellcasting later on).
Way B: Versatility
1) Everyone casts spells spontaneously
2) Characters who used to 'prepare' spells now just choose a list of 'spells known' for the day, equal to how many they used to prepare.
3) This gives prepared casters a smidgen more versatility -- they can now prepare Fireball and cast it as many times as they want.
4) Because of this added versatility, spontaneous spellcasters are recommended to be given +1 spell/day, for each level except their highest (just a free spell, not bonus spell points). You could inject flavor here, using things similar to the arcane domains for these extra spells.
5) This increases their power slightly. Like with above, it's not something that's gonna throw off balance, but it's something you need to be aware of...your sorc does have an extra Magic Missle to toss around, if they feel like it, now. It's harder to drain their low-level resources because they have more of them. Not significantly more (one MM isn't going to sway the tide of battle at fourth level), but more.
So, really, unless you're obsessive about balance, the UA system is a beaut.
And if you're obsessive about balance, I'd recommend sticking with the slots, since it's easier to balance them.
UA powers things up, but it's very very subtle...you shouldn't even have to re-tailor encounters...basically it does it in these ways:
Way A: # of High Level Spells
Basically, you can cast your highest level spells more often under the UA Spell Point system. This means that your lower-level spells more rarely get used, and your higher-level spells get used more often...you as a DM can't prepare for that 'only one Wish per day' thing, because they may be able to cast it two or three times, if they need to, when they get it. This is a minor power-up, since most encounters are based around the capability of spellcasters, rather than the number of spells -- by the time a character can cast Limited Wish, all the critters of that CR take that Limited Wish into account, so it doesn't so much matter how much they can cast it. However this does mean that the spellcaster could blow through one or two encounters, and then be reduced to thunking things with a quarterstaff for the next three hours, too....and if you included a 'boss' encounter, that could throw things for a loop. But it's just something you need to be aware of, rather than balance against -- just make sure your PC's know that lower level spells still have their use, and drain the lower level resources before you dip into their high stuff, to make sure they can't use their high stuff very often (if you start with a small encounter, the spellcaster will likely cast a spell or two for fun, and that means less major spellcasting later on).
Way B: Versatility
1) Everyone casts spells spontaneously
2) Characters who used to 'prepare' spells now just choose a list of 'spells known' for the day, equal to how many they used to prepare.
3) This gives prepared casters a smidgen more versatility -- they can now prepare Fireball and cast it as many times as they want.
4) Because of this added versatility, spontaneous spellcasters are recommended to be given +1 spell/day, for each level except their highest (just a free spell, not bonus spell points). You could inject flavor here, using things similar to the arcane domains for these extra spells.
5) This increases their power slightly. Like with above, it's not something that's gonna throw off balance, but it's something you need to be aware of...your sorc does have an extra Magic Missle to toss around, if they feel like it, now. It's harder to drain their low-level resources because they have more of them. Not significantly more (one MM isn't going to sway the tide of battle at fourth level), but more.
So, really, unless you're obsessive about balance, the UA system is a beaut.
And if you're obsessive about balance, I'd recommend sticking with the slots, since it's easier to balance them.
LoneWolf23
First Post
Here's a thought: How about combining Spell Points with Spell Recharge time? Thus making the spellcasting system more like that of Warcraft, where you can cast any spell you know as long as you have Spellpoints, but you can't just cast the same spell multiple times in a row because that spell needs a "cool down" period before it's available again..
After looking through some spell point systems, I don't believe, that there is a way of having a balanced sorcerous cleric without changing the available spells. Metamagic and the caster level have been created to give some flexibility while having only otherwise fixed spells (which are also cost- and time-intensive to research) - so both concepts have to be reduced and somehow worked in the spell system. Accounting the increased power of spells through increased caster level is then a must, but I didn't see a system which is flawless that way and has only disadvantages, which are acceptable for me (I have to factor out UA's spell point system, because I haven't seen it yet.).
The IMO really near perfect spell point system is the one detailed in "The Elements of Magic - Revised" - the major disadvantage is, that its use alone changes settings because there is no distinction between arcane and divine. Personally I recommend to use it either as a major change of magic in your campaign or starting a new campaign, but in the latter case you have all options, even using it along the standard. No, I don't contradict my words in the above paragraph - EoM-spells have only a sort of in-built caster level, so if you want to have a spell with more damage, you create just one (and that's really easy). Oh, I forgot one disadvantage: EoM has to be published yet, but that's only a matter of being layouted.
The IMO really near perfect spell point system is the one detailed in "The Elements of Magic - Revised" - the major disadvantage is, that its use alone changes settings because there is no distinction between arcane and divine. Personally I recommend to use it either as a major change of magic in your campaign or starting a new campaign, but in the latter case you have all options, even using it along the standard. No, I don't contradict my words in the above paragraph - EoM-spells have only a sort of in-built caster level, so if you want to have a spell with more damage, you create just one (and that's really easy). Oh, I forgot one disadvantage: EoM has to be published yet, but that's only a matter of being layouted.
nikolai
First Post
Thanks for the responses everyone. I'm actually not looking to replace the "Vancian" system; but instead to have two forms of arcane magic co-existing side-by-side. That's where my concerns about balance between the two types comes from.
Kamikaze Midget and Rulesmaster, I'm very appreciative of your summaries. I'll certainly take a look at the UA and EoM systems. I also like the idea of Spell Recharge Time - I think could be a useful balancing tool - how does it work? I presume it's a form of rolling dice to see how long it is before you can reaccess a particular spell. I like it, it places a limit on the use of a spell barrage focuses at an opponents weakspot to take him out.
Kamikaze Midget and Rulesmaster, I'm very appreciative of your summaries. I'll certainly take a look at the UA and EoM systems. I also like the idea of Spell Recharge Time - I think could be a useful balancing tool - how does it work? I presume it's a form of rolling dice to see how long it is before you can reaccess a particular spell. I like it, it places a limit on the use of a spell barrage focuses at an opponents weakspot to take him out.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
That's exactly what my Final Fantasy d20 system does, actually....though to make use of it you either need to use the FFd20 classes, or give the standard classes a MM rating.
And Spell Recharge is basically something like the dragon breath weapons...after use, you roll a dice (d6 for wizzes & clrs, d4's for sorcs & bards), and this is the number of rounds you need to wait before you can cast that spell again. The time goes down for your weaker spells, and certain spells have a set recharge time to prevent a lot of use, but combining it with SP (it's original design is to replace the Vancian system) will certainly alleviate that problem.
RangerWickett
Legend
Quick synopsis of the EOM system.
Your caster level determines how many MP you have, how many spell lists you know, and what your MP limit is.
To cast a spell, you spend MP on effects that you choose from the spell lists you know, like Evoke Death or Charm Vermin. You can make spells up on the fly, though you also have a list of 'signature spells,' which are easier and faster to cast.
A 1 MP spell is roughly equivalent to a 1st level spell, 3 MP ~= 2nd level, 5 MP ~= 3rd level, etc. You cannot spend more MP than your caster level on a single spell.
No spell automatically scales by your caster level. If you're a 10th level mage and you want a 10d6 Evoke Fire spell, you'll be spending 10 MP, unlike a core wizard, who can just cast a 3rd level fireball spell. So you gain a good deal in flexibility, but you have less raw power.
Your caster level determines how many MP you have, how many spell lists you know, and what your MP limit is.
To cast a spell, you spend MP on effects that you choose from the spell lists you know, like Evoke Death or Charm Vermin. You can make spells up on the fly, though you also have a list of 'signature spells,' which are easier and faster to cast.
A 1 MP spell is roughly equivalent to a 1st level spell, 3 MP ~= 2nd level, 5 MP ~= 3rd level, etc. You cannot spend more MP than your caster level on a single spell.
No spell automatically scales by your caster level. If you're a 10th level mage and you want a 10d6 Evoke Fire spell, you'll be spending 10 MP, unlike a core wizard, who can just cast a 3rd level fireball spell. So you gain a good deal in flexibility, but you have less raw power.
The way I did it was a very simple take. 0 Level spells are free (only restriction is you can't cast the same 0 level healing spell on the same person more than 3 times. 1st-9th level spells cost 1 point for each spell level, so 1st costs 1, 5th costs 5 and so on. Metamagic feats just add however many levels/points to the casting fo the spel and can be done spontaneously. You can memorize a # of spells equal to the total # of spells you can cast in the actual chart. SO if yoiu're 3-4-2-1 you can have 10 spells memorized but mix and match how you cast them.
If that got confusing at all I apologize I'm kinda rambling otnight
Hagen
If that got confusing at all I apologize I'm kinda rambling otnight
Hagen
