Balancing "RP" and "G"

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Obviously, we have different tastes in gaming and a different view of what a game is about.

definitely

I was more taking issue with the fact that you seem to think a different way is somehow less than the way you play --

one can also get that same sense from describing the other style of play as lacking versimilitude or not feeling real and complete and so forth.

As far as replacing PCs "weekly", I don't do that either.

I didn't say kill them weekly, i said when they fell they could be replaced next week without messing up the game. you seem to have skewed the meaning a bit.

my example regarding an overarcing plt to stop a BBEG was just that, and example, to illustrate how PCs, while the center of the story that we tell at the end of the session, aren't necessarily the center of the campaign.

I haven't yet figured out how to not have the PCs be the center of the campaign. they are in every scene. That seems to be the center of the campaign. They are going to be the guys making the difference, whose choices most matter, in the end. That also seems to be the center of the campaign.

Now, of course, the NPCs of the world might not see the PCs as such but thats another thing.

 

[DonTadow]

I haven't yet figured out how to not have the PCs be the center of the campaign. they are in every scene. That seems to be the center of the campaign. They are going to be the guys making the difference, whose choices most matter, in the end. That also seems to be the center of the campaign.

Now, of course, the NPCs of the world might not see the PCs as such but thats another thing.

STar Wars is a great example of how the protaganists are not the center of the movie, the bad guy, Darth Vader is. Though he may not be in as many scenes as Luke or Han, he is mentioned very frequently and the protagaonists every reaction is to what he does.

That said, PCs deaths NEED to effect the overall plot if you want to maintain any sense of emersian from your players. Else, the players will just make munchkin character after munckin character with no real regard to their death. In the mean time, other players will risk other characters lives carelessly. Death will no longer be a dreadful thing but a minor hinderance.

If a long standing character dies, the plot is definatly going to change a bit. Here's a guy whom for whatever reason was going after the BBEG and he dies. What do you do with the body? is there a funeral? Any items going to any of his kindred? Will anyone be avenging this death or is his name going to be forgotten three sessions later?

I've never had one character die in my campaign where the character's death did not have ramifications down the road. Two characters were raised by necromancers and are now slaves. and the last one has already set up the pcs next adventure in that he wanted his body returned to his family in case he died.

 

[Reynard]

If a long standing character dies, the plot is definatly going to change a bit. Here's a guy whom for whatever reason was going after the BBEG and he dies. What do you do with the body? is there a funeral? Any items going to any of his kindred? Will anyone be avenging this death or is his name going to be forgotten three sessions later?

I've never had one character die in my campaign where the character's death did not have ramifications down the road. Two characters were raised by necromancers and are now slaves. and the last one has already set up the pcs next adventure in that he wanted his body returned to his family in case he died.

One of the interesting things particular to D&D is that death, even at low levels, isn't necessarily a final event. That aside, even, I agree with you. Characters matter, so their deaths matter -- even if that death is at the hands of a bunch of wererats in the sewers in what might be considered a 'standard' (read: not mega-plot related) adventure. That event happened in a campaign of mine, and that character's death had repercussions for the *entire* campaign from that point forward -- partly because of the PC the player chose to follow up, and partly because of that (dead) character's familial connections to other PCs.

I want to make it clear that I am not talking about the wanton destruction or even marginalization of PCs. The PCs are the protagonists and heroes of the story, and everyhting they do should matter. But that doesn't mean the world, or even the campaign (which, swrushing, I define as "the world story") revolves solely around them.

 

[DonTadow]

One of the interesting things particular to D&D is that death, even at low levels, isn't necessarily a final event. That aside, even, I agree with you. Characters matter, so their deaths matter -- even if that death is at the hands of a bunch of wererats in the sewers in what might be considered a 'standard' (read: not mega-plot related) adventure. That event happened in a campaign of mine, and that character's death had repercussions for the *entire* campaign from that point forward -- partly because of the PC the player chose to follow up, and partly because of that (dead) character's familial connections to other PCs.

I want to make it clear that I am not talking about the wanton destruction or even marginalization of PCs. The PCs are the protagonists and heroes of the story, and everyhting they do should matter. But that doesn't mean the world, or even the campaign (which, swrushing, I define as "the world story") revolves solely around them.

I agree, I think one of the dm's most difficult jobs to walk the thin line between making the pcs actions count, yet making sure that they understand that there is an entire world of activity going on that they can not control.

In an excell spreadsheet, I keep a plot pregression chart. There's are several overarching plots that the pcs have yet to encounter or deal with, and may never deal with for all Iknow. But every few sessions Ill go to the chart and jot some notes down as to what changed and how fluid that plan is. For instance, a psionic criminal has slowly been building an empire in wings of a far off continent. Seeing as though the pcs are about to bring magic to an end soon

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157218

This may play an important roll in their activities or it may stay under the wings and never bother a single adventure they take from now on. ONeo f the things I do is make sure to remind the pcs that they all have individual goals and enemies by having those goalsa nd enemies pop up at inopportune times. example The Forged is cursed with the need now to "cleanse the flesh" of humanoids and though the world is nice and dandy, his main goal is to find a way to rid himself of the curse or get rid of his humanoid emotions so he can complete his task. So its always fun to throw some constructs in a dungeon and remind him of that, while seeing how he reacts. There have been times a blade "mistakenly " founds its way to a comrade.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

STar Wars is a great example of how the protaganists are not the center of the movie, the bad guy, Darth Vader is. Though he may not be in as many scenes as Luke or Han, he is mentioned very frequently and the protagaonists every reaction is to what he does.

Well here we disagree.

Star Wars was about Luke and his transition from farm boy to rebel/jedi apprentice. vadre's role in that film was a little more than marginal but not the driving force (pun intended) to the Luke/Leia actions that the cushing character was. After all, the death star was Cushing's little toy, not vader's.

the later films moved vader into prominence as the main "bad guy" in Empire after cushing was gone and in movie three his redemtpion angle worked in well as Luke's goal with the emporer taking the direct role as main adversary and vader as luke's "secret weapon."

Vader was not the center of that story/movie, but was a classic (some might say cliched) foil for the protagonists who were.

but that is possibly one of those debates that can go on forever.

That said, PCs deaths NEED to effect the overall plot if you want to maintain any sense of emersian from your players. Else, the players will just make munchkin character after munckin character with no real regard to their death. In the mean time, other players will risk other characters lives carelessly. Death will no longer be a dreadful thing but a minor hinderance.

I tend to agree of course, and i would lose much interest if a Gm told me "if the whole lot of you die, we will just whip up some more guys and continue on the quest" as I prefer very personal character-related storylines where, indeed, the specific characters are integral to the plot and not justb that "they be heroes".

However, in my experience, while people seem to enjoy the personalized stuff more, the degree of "do i care about this guy as opposed to one i whip up for next week" is much more a player thing. Some guys regardless of how much personal stuff you give them will "have a backpack full of heroes" and be perfeclty ready to switch off to try another. Others, even when they see it getting nowehre and seeing threats and challenges that are indeed suited for "any heroes will do" will still try and get personal and really see "this character" as important, not as an object lesson for the next batch, but as someone they want to see survive and succeed and grow and hurt and so on.

 

[LostSoul]

To the people who fudge the dice or rules for the sake of the "RP":

Why play D&D, and not some other game that you wouldn't have to fudge to get your "RP" fix?

 

[Starman]

Ok, to start with, i literally stared at the screen slack jawed and agape when iread this. This very question tells me o8r gaming experiences are so far apart as to practically be on different planets (assuming this is a real question you don't know the answer to.)

So, odds are, we have no common reference point from which to discuss.

If the following answers to your question are really not something you are aware of, then we might as well be a klingon talking with a horta.

<SNIP>

Now, not saying to do so is wrong but it is so far apart from my experience of what people enjoy while gaming with all the players i have known as to be incomprehensible. I cannot fathom a gamer who did not know these answers or who needed to ask that question?

Our gaming experiences are clearly radically different.

Or, I just wanted to play devil's advocate and ask some questions to get you to elaborate more. I think it's an interesting topic and I was curious what you would say when asked. Our "gaming experiences" aren't nearly as far apart as you might think.

 

[swrushing]

To the people who fudge the dice or rules for the sake of the "RP":

Why play D&D, and not some other game that you wouldn't have to fudge to get your "RP" fix?

because sometimes people want to play DND or greyhawk or such.

and its not like there are lots of games out there that don't need fudging.

i mean, i have yet to see the perfect game. have you?

 

[DonTadow]

because sometimes people want to play DND or greyhawk or such.

and its not like there are lots of games out there that don't need fudging.

i mean, i have yet to see the perfect game. have you?

Ah, the star wars theme is another thread another day, (but Lucas has been quoted man ytimes as stating the entire six part series is about Vader's rise and fall and not Luke) .

I agree with you on this though. Sometimes people want to play d and d and your players want to see their character being heroic. If all you have to do is change a 13 to a 15 and you know the results will be a memorable scene for one of your players, why not do this. If the results unfudged would resut in something mundane and ununqiue and I had an option, I'll go ahead and fudge if the fudge is going to make a specatcular difference and the fudge is minor. The players create characters to roleplay them through specatcular adventures as opposed to dueling rules fests with the dm. There's one campaign that runs through my head where I can't remember a memorable scene, but I can remember several detailed dm/player arguments.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If all you have to do is change a 13 to a 15 and you know the results will be a memorable scene for one of your players, why not do this. If the results unfudged would resut in something mundane and ununqiue and I had an option, I'll go ahead and fudge if the fudge is going to make a specatcular difference and the fudge is minor.

See, my philosophy is more "A 13 can be as memorable and important as a 15." Or sometimes, "If you rolled a 13, it won't be memorable. But when you roll a 15, it will be. So chance dictates when the encounters are memorable."

I'm not using dice to tell a story. I'm using story to describe what happens when the dice are rolled. It's a variation in really what serves as the foundation for your game -- story, or dice. Really, they're equal, but it is mostly a personal preference descision. Still, I'd say there are often better ways to tell a story than with D&D, while there are few better ways to play a game.