D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 Hates Religion (Spoilers)

[Paul Farquhar]

Mostly it's weird 'cause you're telling the same story (Abusive authority figure) six times in six ways and the most lenient and supportive abusive authority figure in the story is a Half Devil who bargained for Wyll's soul but not only keeps up her end of the deal the entire way through outright gives him tangible rewards (That rapier, tho) and -helps- at the end, directly. Yeah, she's rude along the way, but so was Cordelia Chase and she had the best arc in Buffy -and- Angel.

The potential protagonists have to be somewhat balanced. It wouldn't be very fair if some of the characters had unhelpful patrons and others had helpful ones, would it?

And they are written by the same authors, so the characters reflect the sort of story the authors find interesting. "I'm a cleric and my nice god blasts all the bad guys for me" doesn't make a very interesting narrative.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In fairness to her, this is, like, Mystra 6, right? 7?

It'd be weird if Louis the 14th had an identical personality to Louis the 5th, too.

I may be totally wrong, but IIRC this is original Mystra (the one who replaced Mystryl come back from death, not a new Mystra. If I’m wrong, it’s still just the second Mystra (Midnight), who has also always been a dumbass IMO.
The only one that wasn’t a tool was Mystryl.

Nnnnyyeeeah.... kinda.

But, again, it's just the Avengers problem. The setting is littered with guns that never fire when they should.

The avengers problem isn’t a problem, though, it’s a canard that fans try to point to as a criticism that doesn’t actually make sense as a criticism.

None of these characters are omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. They simply will not be involved in every situation where they’d be useful.

Like I get that the writers aren't explicitly at fault for not taking hundreds of deities and gigabytes of lore into account, here. I wouldn't expect them to. It just makes the story weird in that regard, and it's really more the Setting's fault rather than this specific group of writers.

But, again, this is kind of a tangent off the core thrust of the three religiously tied origin characters being let down by their chosen gods. There are only three, and they're -all- betrayed or manipulated. Don't get me wrong, it all makes sense within the context of the story, and changing the story for that not to occur wouldn't automatically make it "Better" or anything. Just kinda weird that there's no good relationship between origin character and deity.

The closest we get, there, is Selune. But it comes across more as getting her toys back from a mean sibling than it does any kind of healthy relationship with her disciples.

I mean yeah, but only one of those gods is ever depicted as remotely a good god, and I know a ton of people see Mystra as neutral, not good.

I mean the Gith Lich Queen, Shar (who wants to end all things ultimately) and Llolth, are all evil. I wouldn’t want them to have non-toxic relationships with followers.

IMO I think what they needed to do was include an actual good deity whose disciples play an active role.

 

[Incenjucar]

It would certainly be nice to have a BG-style game where the good deities are doing their best but limited in ability due to things beyond their control, or where deities are focused in their portfolio but NOT good and evil.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Literally no one is saying the Sharrans aren't guilty of assault, kidnapping, and murder. I know it's hard to understand, but it's possible to look at something and say "This group is bad, but this other group, which is less bad in this particular instance, are also pretty terrible."

And no, the adults clearly aren't keeping an eye on them. That's explicitly not happening. That's why daddy dearest has to frantically charge out into the woods when he hears that the Sharrans are out there. Because no one was watching them. That is, once again, the actual point of the rite in the first place.

Which is an extremely normal rite of passage.

It is a truly absurd symptom of the broken state of modern society that anyone could ever interpret this as “child abuse”.

 

[Steampunkette]

FR as a whole is riddled with toxic abusive relationships. Elminster is a creep. The setting is pretty gross as a whole, and presages stuff like Family Guy, Rick & Mort, or Game of Thrones in having warped protagonists.

No argument from me on that point!

The potential protagonists have to be somewhat balanced. It wouldn't be very fair if some of the characters had unhelpful patrons and others had helpful ones, would it?

And they are written by the same authors, so the characters reflect the sort of story the authors find interesting. "I'm a cleric and my nice god blasts all the bad guys for me" doesn't make a very interesting narrative.

Ehhh. That's not what I'm saying, Paul.

Let's do a quick rewrite that Shadowheart is Jenevelle and she's a Selunite from the word "Go" rather than a Sharran. And her parents were kidnapped by Viconia in service to Shar because Shar wants to torment Jenevelle because she's a loyal Selunite.

Shar is her antagonistic element and Selune is in her corner and she has a good relationship with Selune that involves Selune giving her guidance or even help to recover her parents and fight against the Absolute. Not "Comes in and does it for her" but offers concrete aid in the form of, say, a magic item to help along the way, or a hint at a key moment about where to turn to for aid.

In this version of the story you now have a character with a healthy relationship with their deity, a clear antagonist, a goal, and aid from their deity that isn't "Oh, I'll solve the problem for you."

To be clear: This is just one example of a way to have a character with a healthy relationship with their deity and still have antagonists, strife, and a story where the deity doesn't resolve all their problems for them. Not my preferred story instead of what we actually got for Shadowheart. Just a quick example.

I may be totally wrong, but IIRC this is original Mystra (the one who replaced Mystryl come back from death, not a new Mystra. If I’m wrong, it’s still just the second Mystra (Midnight), who has also always been a dumbass IMO.
The only one that wasn’t a tool was Mystryl.

Even if she's the first Mystra the point was that inconsistent writing of the character has a lot to do with the various "Mystras" that there have been over the years, with "Mystra 6? 7?" being an intentional exaggeration for comedic effect.

The avengers problem isn’t a problem, though, it’s a canard that fans try to point to as a criticism that doesn’t actually make sense as a criticism.

Ehhh... That some people disagree with a criticism doesn't make it a Canard. Where was the Sorcerer Supreme when the planet Earth was hatching a Celestial? They can literally sling-ring themself anywhere they like and have all kinds of magical wards to warn them when big things are happening.

"Dr. Strange was dead at the time" yeah, so there was a different Sorcerer Supreme with half as many Sorcerer-Trainees as pre-blip. But half is not 0.

None of these characters are omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. They simply will not be involved in every situation where they’d be useful.

I meeeeeeean... For the Avengers that's true. Deities in the Realms... slightly more arguable. Especially since multiple gods are in the storyline.

I mean yeah, but only one of those gods is ever depicted as remotely a good god, and I know a ton of people see Mystra as neutral, not good.

Sure. But the Absolute is going to destroy ALL of the mortal souls in existence to initiate the Grand Design. There will be no mortals on Faerun. Only Illithid. Even the Evil Gods should be opposing the Dead Three and the Netherbrain as hard as they possibly can. Granted, there's only so much they can do thanks to Ao's limits, but nothing at all?

I mean the Gith Lich Queen, Shar (who wants to end all things ultimately) and Llolth, are all evil. I wouldn’t want them to have non-toxic relationships with followers.

'Kay.

IMO I think what they needed to do was include an actual good deity whose disciples play an active role.

Sure. I offered up an example of what they could've done that would've had a good deity in the mix from Act 1, though it would've required the Dark Urge or Tav to be the one carrying the Prism off the ship.

It would certainly be nice to have a BG-style game where the good deities are doing their best but limited in ability due to things beyond their control, or where deities are focused in their portfolio but NOT good and evil.

It would be a -very- different story. But one I'd love to play through! Honestly, more BG3 gameplay in general is required for me.

Whether that's player-created content, DLCs, a sequel... I just want more 'cause I really like both playing 5eish games and being able to play ridiculous 5eish games without getting judged for it.

The list of BG3 mods I'm looking at using, eventually, is expansive and whacky.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Shar is her antagonistic element and Selune is in her corner and she has a good relationship with Selune that involves Selune giving her guidance or even help to recover her parents and fight against the Absolute. Not "Comes in and does it for her" but offers concrete aid in the form of, say, a magic item to help along the way, or a hint at a key moment about where to turn to for aid.

So, if the player plays Shadowheart they get concrete aid (beyond normal cleric spells) from Selune. Or the player plays Wyll, and has a devil making demands of them. Do you not see that would be a problem?

And do you not see why "I'm a nice person with nice helpful patron who does nice things and nice things happen to" does not make an interesting character arc?

 

[Steampunkette]

So, if the player plays Shadowheart and gets concrete aid (beyond normal cleric spells) from Selune. Or the player plays Wyll, and has a devil making demands of them. Do you not see that would be a problem?

And do you not see why "I'm a nice person with nice helpful patron who does nice things and nice things happen to" does not make an interesting character arc?

... No. I -really- don't. So long as Wyll -also- gets his really cool Rapier and the concrete aid from Mizora in the leadup to the last battle and her helping him rescue his father along the way... None of which are part of a Warlock getting spells from their Patron, I might add.

Is it "Fair" to Shadowheart that Wyll gets concrete help saving his father but she gets no help saving her parents in the House of Grief? Is it fair to Astarion, Gale, Lae'zel, and Karlach that they don't get "Help" from any NPC to accomplish their personal goals -or- a Special Weapon just for them? After all, Shadowheart gets the Sharran or Selunite Spear during Act 2 just like Wyll gets his Rapier. Where's Karlach's awesome "Demon-Killer" greataxe or Astarion's "I hate that I'm a Vampire Spawn" dagger set? Does Gale get a Staff that grants him extra spell slots? Lae'zel get a cool set of Githyanki Armor?

But it would "Be a problem" if one character got concrete aid toward their goals and the other didn't, right?

And do you not see that "I have a nice helpful patron" in the example story outline ISN'T the character arc that's happening?
That the character arc that this version of Jenevelle is going through is opposing Shar and trying to rescue her parents from her enemy Viconia De'vir. Yeah, she gets help from Selune in the process but Wyll gets help from Mizora saving -his- Dad soooo...?

They're different stories within the story. And none of them are player characters at a table in a game you're running.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Even if she's the first Mystra the point was that inconsistent writing of the character has a lot to do with the various "Mystras" that there have been over the years, with "Mystra 6? 7?" being an intentional exaggeration for comedic effect.

Fair, but I do think the story involving her in BG3 is bizarre for any version of Mystra. From a deity that acts like that normally, it wouldn’t bother me. FR gods are largely bad at being gods IMO.

Ehhh... That some people disagree with a criticism doesn't make it a Canard.

Sure, but I didn’t claim that it did. I described the argument as a canard. No “because some people disagree” anywhere in sight.

Where was the Sorcerer Supreme when the planet Earth was hatching a Celestial? They can literally sling-ring themself anywhere they like and have all kinds of magical wards to warn them when big things are happening.

"Dr. Strange was dead at the time" yeah, so there was a different Sorcerer Supreme with half as many Sorcerer-Trainees as pre-blip. But half is not 0.

Dealing with sorcerer stuff who cares? It isn’t a story about him, so he is elsewhere doing other. It literally does not matter on any level.

meeeeeeean... For the Avengers that's true. Deities in the Realms... slightly more arguable. Especially since multiple gods are in the storyline.

I’m not sure it is any more arguable for FR gods. They canonically aren’t Omni-anything.

Sure. But the Absolute is going to destroy ALL of the mortal souls in existence to initiate the Grand Design. There will be no mortals on Faerun. Only Illithid. Even the Evil Gods should be opposing the Dead Three and the Netherbrain as hard as they possibly can. Granted, there's only so much they can do thanks to Ao's limits, but nothing at all?

Okay and, in addition to all the reasons they can’t intervene, how many gods know about it before the characters do?

'Kay.

Sure. I offered up an example of what they could've done that would've had a good deity in the mix from Act 1, though it would've required the Dark Urge or Tav to be the one carrying the Prism off the ship.

I’d have loved more with gods that classically oppose Shar and the various Dead Three, even if also evil. Like Mask. He loves secretly working against Shar, and I’m sure he still wants to find a way to get purview over assassination back.

And the Mystra storyline is just bizarre, again. Like they wanted that basic shape of a story but couldn’t think of another deity to tell it with so they went “well, wizard. Mystra works I guess.”

I only disagree with you on the specific points I’ve challenged. The rest I either agree or am indifferent.

 

[Dausuul]

If you start turning away from the Emperor in your dreams after the Githyanki situation, after he tells you about Stelmane, confronting him about controlling you, he'll show you the TRUTH of what happened to Stelmane during their alliance...

Last night I finished an evil playthrough and picked the "betray the Emperor and dominate the brain" option. It was amazingly cathartic to watch my protagonist stab that smug manipulative bastard to death. Shame the only way to see that cutscene is to pick the Way of Absolute Evil.

 

[Steampunkette]

Last night I finished an evil playthrough and picked the "betray the Emperor and dominate the brain" option. It was amazingly cathartic to watch my protagonist stab that smug manipulative bastard to death. Shame the only way to see that cutscene is to pick the Way of Absolute Evil.

I mean...

If you free Orpheus then the Emperor arrives -on- the dominated Red Dragon and summons your Dream Guardians to fight you. So I still got to stab him to death without being evil, myself.

You should do the same, sometime!