D&D General Baldur's Gate 3 Hates Religion (Spoilers)

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, the alternative is 'why can't we roleplaying owning humans, not letting women do things, and being racist', so...

 

[Steampunkette]

I feel Dragonlance in general has its own perspective and strong philosophical ideas and conceptualization (I've been re-reading the Annotated Chronicles and Legends and they talk about that quite a bit), and Ravenloft has (or rather had officially) quite a lot of them. Dark Sun certainly didn't look at itself from a modern perspective. I never got into Greyhawk so I can't say, but FR I'll grant you.

Dark Sun was INCREDIBLY and INTENSELY modern in how it did things!

For one, the Gods were Dead (Nietzsche) and the only morality that existed was what we created for ourselves (Moral Relativism was rampant in the setting) with the assumption that most people simply wouldn't create a moral identity without deific reinforcement (Cultural Christianity). It was an attempt to break away from "Traditional Fantasy" and branch out to something more modern weighed down by a LOT of baggage...

For another Magic was destroying the world. Of course magic was a stand in for aggressive pollution and industry ignoring environmental concerns rather than an aspect of the natural world as it had traditionally been portrayed. Similarly, "Capitalism is Bad" was writ large across the setting through the Sorcerer Kings who were concerned only with their benefit and to hell with the world and all the people in it.

Plus you had people fighting against the pollution like Planeteers in the Preservers who were trying to bring the magic back, and an alternate system of more democratized non-destructive power through Psionics which required you to look inside yourself and build yourself up through hokey 90's understandings of both 1800s parlor mysticism and orientalist ideas about meditation, chakras, and more, which carried into 3rd edition with SO MANY CRYSTALS. Seriously. New Age Mysticism is a huge part of Psionics in Dark Sun and 3e.

Like Ruin Explorer pointed out Chattel Slavery was the form employed on a specific slave race who were specifically bred to be better slaves, which gets into a whole OTHER discussion.

The entire setting was also based on and built around Mad Max in it's style and aesthetic which had no ties to traditional clothing styles and fairly loose connections with the Punk scene post 70s.

And, let us not forget, SURF DRUIDS. Nothing more traditionally fantasy than someone cramming Surfing into a genre. And a ridiculous part of 90s culture thanks to TMNT.

Dark Sun was modern sensibilities FOR ITS TIME.

Sure, a lot of what Dark Sun did wouldn't fly, today, without serious revision. And WotC are big cowards for not being willing to take the risk and spend the money it would take to -make- it fly, today. But it was 100% a product of the 80s and 90s in all the best and all the worst ways.

 

[GreyLord]

Sure, a lot of what Dark Sun did wouldn't fly, today, without serious revision. And WotC are big cowards for not being willing to take the risk and spend the money it would take to -make- it fly, today. But it was 100% a product of the 80s and 90s in all the best and all the worst ways.

I thought what they did in the 4e versions was pretty good.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I thought what they did in the 4e versions was pretty good.

I didn't like 4e, so no amount of lore changes, even if I liked them, would have worked for me.

 

[Mecheon]

I don't rejoice in retcons without in-universe explanation.

Kaelyn the dove, ex-Doomguide of Kelemvor, destroyed it along with the player character and a gaggle of other misc followers in MotB. There you go, not a retcon but "This was the original intent" that got cut in the game with so, so much cut content (seriously you do not know how much cut content is in NWN 2). As for why its not known? I dunno, Kelemvor tried to keep it quiet a bunch of angry mortals invaded the realm of the dead and people thought it was still around.

Or the player character ate the hunger of the wall and became a god-eating monster who Faerun really, really hopes still doesn't still exist around, but that's if you went the evil path

 

[Micah Sweet]

Kaelyn the dove, ex-Doomguide of Kelemvor, destroyed it along with the player character and a gaggle of other misc followers in MotB. There you go, not a retcon but "This was the original intent" that got cut in the game with so, so much cut content (seriously you do not know how much cut content is in NWN 2). As for why its not known? I dunno, Kelemvor tried to keep it quiet a bunch of angry mortals invaded the realm of the dead and people thought it was still around.

Or the player character ate the hunger of the wall and became a god-eating monster who Faerun really, really hopes still doesn't still exist around, but that's if you went the evil path

What's MotB? And NWN2 is a video game, not part of FR canon proper unless it's in a book somewhere. Is it in a book somewhere?

 

[Shardstone]

IDK man, ideas change overtime and retcons don't matter IMO. At the end of the day, the setting already changed whenever someone new put their hands on it. The lore has never been ironclad with FR IMO, and the Ed Greenwood literally publishes books of FR lore on the DMs Guild. There's really no valid reason for you to be upset. You have your old books, and you can get Greenwood's very own ideas on the DMG. C'mon man.

What's MotB? And NWN2 is a video game, not part of FR canon proper unless it's in a book somewhere. Is it in a book somewhere?

 

[Mecheon]

What's MotB? And NWN2 is a video game, not part of FR canon proper unless it's in a book somewhere. Is it in a book somewhere?

Doesn't have a book version but MotB was considered the second well-written D&D video game, after Planescape Torment. And uh, let me tell you, most people who know Torment very much like the game being canon and not the novel version

seriously the Planescape Torment novel ain't good. Like, just taking the game script is a better book

 

[Micah Sweet]

IDK man, ideas change overtime and retcons don't matter IMO. At the end of the day, the setting already changed whenever someone new put their hands on it. The lore has never been ironclad with FR IMO, and the Ed Greenwood literally publishes books of FR lore on the DMs Guild. There's really no valid reason for you to be upset. You have your old books, and you can get Greenwood's very own ideas on the DMG. C'mon man.

I'm hardly upset, I just don't count alternative forms of media as existing in the same universe. It doesn't matter how cool they are. The MCU, for example, is not the same place as universe 616 in the main Marvel comics canon. It doesn't mean I object to the MCU, but what happens there has no direct effect in-universe on the comics. And its the same with video games based on a literary property. Popularity simply doesn't enter into it.

Has WotC come out and stated that these video games to which you are referring are part of the core story of the FR? They did with the Gold Box series (publishing supplements to that effect), but I haven't heard of anything like that more recently.

 

[GreyLord]

I'm hardly upset, I just don't count alternative forms of media as existing in the same universe. It doesn't matter how cool they are. The MCU, for example, is not the same place as universe 616 in the main Marvel comics canon. It doesn't mean I object to the MCU, but what happens there has no direct effect in-universe on the comics. And its the same with video games based on a literary property. Popularity simply doesn't enter into it.

Has WotC come out and stated that these video games to which you are referring are part of the core story of the FR? They did with the Gold Box series (publishing supplements to that effect), but I haven't heard of anything like that more recently.

Comics is a whole nother ball game!

For example, in Marvel, is the Universe really the same Universe after the Age of Apocalypse was resolved, or is it sort of the same but yet different with the subtle change made to it (X-Man actually exists in the universe after that, coming out of nowhere). Or did it cease to exist when Scarlet Witch wiped out 99% of Mutants and changed the entirety of reality after The House of M debacle?

Or...a dozen other times when they wiped out the existing known universe and replaced it with something new (I prefer any of the universes where Peter Parker stayed married with MJ and thus had more character growth and showed progress then the regression they did...though he still is married to MJ supposedly, but in yet another universe...).

I mean, in one Marvel Universe...Reign happens...in the current Marvel Universe...that's never going to happen due to paradoxes between that storyline and Reigns...which means they must be in a different universe...etc...etc...etc.

And that's just Marvel...DC is far far far worse. When did their Universe actually end...was it in the 70s? The 80s? The 90s? the 10s?

And those were complete wipes and reboots as opposed to what Marvel did (more of soft reboots).

DC even admitted that the original universe was different than the one they were using in the 80s (I think that's when it came out) and have had that same type of thing occur over and over again.

MCU...the 616 (is it really though? the current 616 would be impossible to match up to the canon future of older 616 universes...so which was the REAL 616 universe...because they contradict each other and the future that would have come)...Ultimate (remember that universe...the one where Miles was one of the ONLY survivors)...I think the editors get confused about which universe is the actual Marvel universe and which one is the copy these days.