D&D 5E Banishment and Incapacitated

[beaumontsebos]

A question for the hive...

Banishment spell says "If the target is native to the plane of existence you're on, you banish the target to a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated..."

But then has a whole other paragraph about those non-native targets: "If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the one you're on, the target is banished with a faint popping noise, returning to its home plane. If the spell ends before 1 minute has passed..."

Nowhere does it state that the non-native target would be incapacitated.

In my game, a character banished a creature that was non-native. So the creature went to its own plane of existence, but I figured it wasn't incapacitated, so it was able to act. It immediately cast plane shift back to where the characters were (the creature was a retriever that could cast plane shift three times per day without any components).

What do you think? Was this allowed or should the retriever have been incapacitated for the minute duration of the spell?

Thanks!

 

[Oofta]

If you're strictly following the rules, you are correct on banishment. It's something I hadn't ever noticed. Then again I banished banishment primarily for lore reasons so it hasn't come up in games I DM.

But plane shift is another issue and one that might get some pushback. When you plane shift unless you are shifting to a teleportation circle, you only get the general area. Of course, exactly where you end up depends on the DM so ... maybe?

You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination.​

I'd probably make some kind of check for the enemy to see how close they got.

 

[beaumontsebos]

If you're strictly following the rules, you are correct on banishment. It's something I hadn't ever noticed. Then again I banished banishment primarily for lore reasons so it hasn't come up in games I DM.

But plane shift is another issue and one that might get some pushback. When you plane shift unless you are shifting to a teleportation circle, you only get the general area. Of course, exactly where you end up depends on the DM so ... maybe?

You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of the Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination.​

I'd probably make some kind of check for the enemy to see how close they got.

Ah! I think you're right on Plane Shifting back. The Retriever has an ability (Faultless Tracker) that allows it to know the exact location and distance to its quarry. That's how it was able to Plane Shift right back to them. HOWEVER, I just noted that the ability specifies the retriever must be on the same plane of existence as its quarry to locate it. Therefore, once banished to its own plane (which in my campaign was Mechanus), the retriever would not be able to use Faultless Tracker until it got back to the Prime Material plane where the characters were.

 

[NotAYakk]

Ah! I think you're right on Plane Shifting back. The Retriever has an ability (Faultless Tracker) that allows it to know the exact location and distance to its quarry. That's how it was able to Plane Shift right back to them. HOWEVER, I just noted that the ability specifies the retriever must be on the same plane of existence as its quarry to locate it. Therefore, once banished to its own plane (which in my campaign was Mechanus), the retriever would not be able to use Faultless Tracker until it got back to the Prime Material plane where the characters were.

Knowing the exact location and distance to someone doesn't let you Plane Shift to that location.

For example, you could be scrying a location. If you Plane Shift to the plane, you can't guarantee you end up where you are scrying.

 

[beaumontsebos]

Knowing the exact location and distance to someone doesn't let you Plane Shift to that location.

For example, you could be scrying a location. If you Plane Shift to the plane, you can't guarantee you end up where you are scrying.

Yep. Another valid point indicating I beefed it!

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

In my game, a character banished a creature that was non-native. So the creature went to its own plane of existence, but I figured it wasn't incapacitated, so it was able to act. It immediately cast plane shift back to where the characters were (the creature was a retriever that could cast plane shift three times per day without any components).

That is a cunning idea. I wish I'd used that in my last game.

GM: You feel that concentration on the banishment spell is no longer needed.
Player: What?
GM: The spell's effect has ended, so there is nothing to concentrate on.
Player: Wait, what does that mean?
GM: It means the creature is no longer banished.
Player: But the spell still has time to run! I didn't drop concentration!
GM: evil grin I know.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I mean, it says they are "banished" to their home plane. I would interpret "banished" as also functioning like a condition, specifically a pseudo-condition of not being able to go to the plane they are banished from (per the normal meaning of being "banished" from a place) for the duration of the spell. If the spell ends early they get a free ride back. If it does not they may return by their own means if able after the spell ends.

The sort of enemies who can casually toss off a plane shift can probably come up with ways to come back meaner than ever when given a minute of timeout, without making the players feel so much like they got cheated out of their cool move as if they just come back the next turn. They should be buffing themself up or rounding-up up to eight willing minions.

Others have, of course, noted that Plane Shift doesn't work as you used it. You would generally need to use Gate for a creature to come straight back to the fight, though it is not a stretch to have a teleportation circle near a fight you are anticipating will likely involve an extraplanar being getting banished.

 

[MarkB]

I mean, it says they are "banished" to their home plane. I would interpret "banished" as also functioning like a condition, specifically a pseudo-condition of not being able to go to the plane they are banished from (per the normal meaning of being "banished" from a place) for the duration of the spell. If the spell ends early they get a free ride back. If it does not they may return by their own means if able after the spell ends.

The sort of enemies who can casually toss off a plane shift can probably come up with ways to come back meaner than ever when given a minute of timeout, without making the players feel so much like they got cheated out of their cool move as if they just come back the next turn. They should be buffing themself up or rounding-up up to eight willing minions.

Others have, of course, noted that Plane Shift doesn't work as you used it. You would generally need to use Gate for a creature to come straight back to the fight, though it is not a stretch to have a teleportation circle near a fight you are anticipating will likely involve an extraplanar being getting banished.

I might split the difference. If the banished creature plane shifts back to the plane it was banished from, it gets a new save. On a fail, it's promptly re-banished.

 

[Hussar]

I played it that the baddy managed to plane shift a random distance away (I used a few hundred feet because it was a dungeon situation. Outdoors maybe further). But when the caster stops concentrating, the banished creature would reappear in its original position. The banished creature casting plane shift didn’t change the banishment spell.

 

[NotAYakk]

I might split the difference. If the banished creature plane shifts back to the plane it was banished from, it gets a new save. On a fail, it's promptly re-banished.

This is good advice.

When two game mechanics disagree with each other, roll dice.

Here, "banished for 1 minute or concentration" vs "plane shift" disagrees which plane the creature is on.

A new save vs banished, an arcana check by the plane shifter, an opposed arcana vs concentration check -- all reasonable ways to roll dice.

I like the feel of making it an opposed concentration check however. The nice result is that defeating the banishment via plane shift causes concentration on the banishment to end. Which gives natural feedback to the caster of the banishment. Plus the in-game fiction is great: the PC casting banishment feels something is trying to break the effect and it strains their concentration.

Plane Shift, being a higher level spell, might give advantage to the Arcana check.

If a Gate is used, it might allow a check each round. I might even apply damage to failed attempts to get through the gate.

...

on the other hand, banishment is multi-target. Breaking concentration with a plane shift means everyone comes back.