Level Up (A5E) Barbarian: Enhanced Vitality is....pretty bad.

[niklinna]

What if you just switched it from subbing Con/AC bonus into a Dex save (which berserker is not proficient in), to actually being a Con saving throw (gaining proficiency), or saying that you get your proficiency bonus on the subbed saving throw?

 

[MarkB]

What if you just switched it from subbing Con/AC bonus into a Dex save (which berserker is not proficient in), to actually being a Con saving throw (gaining proficiency), or saying that you get your proficiency bonus on the subbed saving throw?

Just gaining proficiency doesn't work so well, because there are other ways to gain proficiency, such as starting out in a different class.

 

[tetrasodium]

When I commented on this yesterday I thought Preternatural Agility was no damage on a save & full damage on a fail making Enhanced vitality a pretty good deal for those who expect to fail. That assumption was in error & I see the problem. With EV it doesn't matter how good it might make you at the save, that save is going to be the same as a fail with PE at best & dex save for none effects are so rare it's still basically going to always be worse than a success.

• If EV applied to more saves it would be better. Not just all dex saves but something paladin/herald-like all saves or maybe dex & wis saves. That kind of change would make the choice one that involves some thought
• If PE were full damage on fail no damage on save the choice would involve some thought. Right now there is only a choice if you misunderstand what PE does compared to EV.

 

[MarkB]

When I commented on this yesterday I thought Preternatural Agility was no damage on a save & full damage on a fail making Enhanced vitality a pretty good deal for those who expect to fail. That assumption was in error & I see the problem. With EV it doesn't matter how good it might make you at the save, that save is going to be the same as a fail with PE at best & dex save for none effects are so rare it's still basically going to always be worse than a success.

• If EV applied to more saves it would be better. Not just all dex saves but something paladin/herald-like all saves or maybe dex & wis saves. That kind of change would make the choice one that involves some thought
• If PE were full damage on fail no damage on save the choice would involve some thought. Right now there is only a choice if you misunderstand what PE does compared to EV.

You could make it the equivalent of the first half of the Monk's Diamond Soul ability - you are proficient with all saving throws.

 

[Stalker0]

You could make it the equivalent of the first half of the Monk's Diamond Soul ability - you are proficient with all saving throws.

I think that's taking it a bit far. I think if it was as simple as "you can use your con save on dex saves", I think that's pretty solid. I don't need the abilities to be strictly equal, just as long as both would come up often enough to be useful.

While Dex for half are the most common form of dex saves, there are still a number of straight up dex saves that PA wouldn't apply to, and that could give EV a reasonable niche.

 

[tetrasodium]

I think that's taking it a bit far. I think if it was as simple as "you can use your con save on dex saves", I think that's pretty solid. I don't need the abilities to be strictly equal, just as long as both would come up often enough to be useful.

While Dex for half are the most common form of dex saves, there are still a number of straight up dex saves that PA wouldn't apply to, and that could give EV a reasonable niche.

They dont need to be equal yea, but it's a problem when one at it's best is equivalent to the other at its worst

 

[Stalker0]

They dont need to be equal yea, but it's a problem when one at it's best is equivalent to the other at its worst

Sure, hence the idea of making it apply to all dex saves.

So now on Dex for half, PA is strictly better. And in dex without half, EV is strictly better. Balance!

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, hence the idea of making it apply to all dex saves.

So now on Dex for half, PA is strictly better. And in dex without half, EV is strictly better. Balance!

There are very few DeX for none aside for a few cantrips though

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes. That is right
Not because one is bad, but the other one is too good in comparison.

I just want to name a spell where you want the first one:
Faery fire.

 

[Kinematics]

The reprint has changed Enhanced Vitality, but now rather than merely pretty bad, it seems almost entirely worthless.

Enhanced Vitality
Choose Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. When you make the chosen saving throw against an effect that deals half damage on a success, you can choose to instead make a Constitution saving throw.

Now, using Con to make saves against what would normally require a mental stat save would be a huge boon for the Berserker, who is likely to have dumped at least one mental stat. However it's limited to effects that deal half damage on success. And my first thought is, are there even any such spells?

Doing a search of the spells in the PDF, I only found two spells (one Int, one Wis) that have a mental stat save that halves damage. Since you can only pick one stat for this to work with, it seems like this feature allows you to choose one single spell that you can roll a Con save on to reduce damage, instead of Int or Wis (there are no Cha options).

I also started searching the monster manual to see if this is useful on some non-spell abilities, but so far am not finding anything different than the usual spell expectations, where mental saves are almost always for status effects, and for the few that do damage, it's all or nothing, not save for half.

Am I missing something? This seems beyond horrible, particularly compared to Preternatural Evasion.