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Barbarians VS Fighters

I was curious as to the opinions of other people on the subject of which is a better addition to a party, a Barbarian or a Fighter. This is assuming just the core classes are in question here, without any additional multiclassing or prestige classes included.

It seems to me the Barbarian is far superior to the Fighter both initially and as the game progresses. They have higher hitpoints, move faster, hit harder, have better saves, better out of combat skills, Uncanny Dodge to deal with Rogues (which alone puts them in a better position than Fighters), and damage reduction at higher levels. Eight feats is more than enough to specialize in any one area of combat, and the extra feats the Fighter will have seem to be neglibible in their effect compared to the bonuses the Barbarian receives.

Am I missing anything here? It simply seems the Barbarian will always add more to the party, whether it be in dungeon delving, exploration and frontier missions, or just straight combat. What does the Fighter have over the Barbarian that makes him worth getting for the full twenty levels if no multiclassing or prestige classes are allowed?
 

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I think you underestimate the usefulness of masses and masses of feats. The Fighter class is also amazingly flexible.

Also, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. Those end up making up for the Barbarian's bonuses to hit, I think.
 


Well, assuming no multiclassing is a rather dangerous assumption. The most common multiclass I see around where I live is Barbarian/Fighter. (The traditional mix is Bbn 1 or Bbn 2/Ftr the rest of the way, but I know of one 14th level Ftr 6/Bbn 8). The first two levels of Barbarian give rage, fast movement, and Uncanny Dodge which is well worth two fighter levels. After that, it's 5th level before you get a new ability worth having (the 2nd rage at 4th level is nice but Extra Rage can substitute for it). OTOH, the first two levels of fighter give you a feat at each level and then 4th level fighter gives you weapon specialization.

But, multiclassing aside, why play a fighter instead of a barbarian?
1. Barbarians deal out a lot of damage, but they also take a lot of damage. A typical barbarian IME takes at least twice as much healing as a more defensively oriented character.
2. Fighters have a lot more defensive options. Tower shields and Combat Expertise are probably the two most commonly used ones. However, Improved Trip is a great feat for fighters and, while barbarians could take it, most single-classed ones don't because they don't get many feats and taking a feat that doesn't work with Rage (Combat Expertise) isn't a good deal. Furthermore, a lot of them dump int and couldn't get it if they wanted it.
3. Fighters do non-two handed weapon fighting better than barbarians. A barbarian could use a sword and shield. But he usually doesn't want to. Rage gives more extra damage if he uses a two-handed weapon. Furthermore, rage diminishes the Bbn's AC which is the point of the shield to start with. Greater Weapon Specialization, OTOH, works just fine with a one-handed weapon.
4. Fighters are the best damage dealing archers out there, hands down. Even the complete books don't have prestige classes that an archer could take that give him something better than Greater Weapon Specialization. Barbarians, OTOH, don't make great archers because they would need to carry a non-raging bow and a raging bow to take advantage of their increased strength without spending all their non-raging combats at -2 to hit. Furthermore, weapon focus and greater weapon focus help archers attack rolls. Rage doesn't.
5. Fighters do two weapon fighting better than barbarians. If you take a two bladed sword fighter or an oversized two weapon fighting fighter with two waraxes or bastard swords or mauls or whatever, and apply rage, he gets +2 atk and +2 dmg with his primary hand but only +2 atk, +1 dmg with the other. A fighter, OTOH, gets +1 atk and +2 dmg with both blades--+2 atk and +4 dmg with greater weapon specialization. (And Greater Weapon Spec. is much better than greater rage for this).

6. As for feats, 8 feats is not enough to truly master a style of combat. (And even if it were, mastering a style of combat at 18th level doesn't let you enjoy it for as many levels as mastering a style at 8th level does). For instance, consider the following chains:
Archery: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Quickdraw (12 feats--9 if you don't count exclusive fighter feats).
Two Handed Weapon Damage: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Improved Critical, (all 4 weapon focus/spec feats)--14 feats--11 if you don't count fighter exclusive feats. A fighter who has all this can charge, leap attack, power attack for his full BAB, apply the entire penalty to his AC instead of his attack (meaning he'll still almoster certainly hit), sunder his opponent's weapon, cleave through into the opponent, and then put his dodge on whoever looks the most dangerous and avoid all of the extra power attack damage that he'd usually take for dropping his AC with shock trooper (because of Elusive Target).
Two Weapon Fighting: TWF, Imp TWF, GTWF, Oversided TWF (or EWP: Double Weapon), Power Attack (for when you make a single attack or normally if using oversized TWF), Imp Crit, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, (10 feats--7 if you don't count fighter exclusive feats)--you could also add Two Weapon Defense and Imp Two Weapon Defense or Imp Shield Bash to the list, but I think an animated shield is a better buy than those feats.

So, while you could eventually master one of these styles as a barbarian, it would take you until 18th level and even then, your trick would be that you had mastered that style--you wouldn't have any of the other options--Close Quarters Fighting, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, etc. that a fighter will have. A fighter can master a combat style before 10th level and STILL learn a bunch of tricks that give him options beyond attack, power attack, and do damage.
 

And the Fighter doesn´t really have to "master" a certain style - expanding into different direction makes it a lot more versatile and interesting...

The last time I played a barbarian, I had to take a lot of damage and was taken down multiple times. The Barbarian died finally to the Death Touch ability of an enemy Cleric (to few HP left), and I rolled up a Fighter. Suddenly, I didn´t deal the same massive amount of damage, but most the time, my enemies missed me, and I did considerably harm their combat abilites with tripping ...
 

One way of considering the issue is to consider what else is being played in the group, and what kinds of adventures are being attempted. There are some campaigns where barbarians are more useful, and some where fighters are more useful. There are some parties where a barbarian is just a hassle (i.e. the barbarian is always running off into battles that the others would have liked to bypass), but there are other parties that are well-rounded by having a barbarian.

I think it's like saying "Which is better with breakfast, orange juice or grape juice?" It comes down to what else you're having it with, your individual preference, and similar factors.

Dave
 

I gotta say that I love my female dwarven barbarian/spirit shaman with the Whirling Frenzy option from Unearthed Arcana. Her AC (instead of her CON) goes UP instead of down when frenzied. Otherwise I would probably never play a barbarian. Armor Class is...precious to me.
 


Barbarians are competitive with Fighters when it comes to two-handed weapons, maybe a shade better. They are vastly weaker when it comes to flexiblity.

You are underestimating the value of feat chains. A Barbarian struggles to master one feat chain, maybe two on the really long term. A Fighter can pick up two or three or four and still have a few odd feats to spread around.

IMO it comes down to playing style. If you like an extremely tactically rich and powerful character (Spring Attack, Elusive Target, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, etc.) choose a Fighter. If you are happy with someone who does well enough swinging away with his big axe and you like to have a good set of skills, choose a Barbarian.

If you survey the posters on these boards, I bet a strong majority will say that Fighters are better than Barbarians. A lot of that has to do with the flexibility and minmax potential with all those Fighter bonus feats. Personally I think this extremely combat-centric POV underestimates how valuable a good selection of skills will be in the long haul -- skill points add a lot of fun to a PC even if they are not necessary a matter of life and death...but sometimes they are. Just a matter of taste really.
 

My choice usually comes down to whether there's a cleric in the party.

If there is, then the lower AC of the Barb isn't such a liability. OTOH, it sucks having killed all the baddies only to realize that once you stop raging you re going to fall unconscious and die and no one in the party can save you.

OTOH, Barbs arent supposed to reach old age...
 

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