Barbarians VS Fighters

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Interestingly enough, along the skill point route I was thinking just the opposite, that there are likely barbarians who do NOT treat intel as a dump stat because they actually get a respectable amount of skill points in the first place. Whereas a fighter... meh. When you're already not getting (pretty much) any skills, trying to USE them is futile, so just ignore 'em.

Probably both views have their validity...

Personally, I think the skills of a Fighter are undeappreciated. They get Climb, Jump and Swim. These skills can help a lot in the "uncomfortable" situations (aquatic enviroment, mountains and caves, chasmns) without having to waste spells on him.
Rogues get these skills too, but they have a lot more skills to cover that sometimes even spells cannot reliably compensate for. (Think of Disable Device, Search, Use Magic Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble)

A human can max these Fighter skills with an INT of 10. Having 3 points more of int, he can also qualify for a few good feats (Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and in the long run even Whirlwind Attack), and can also max either Handle Animal, Intimidate or Ride...

 

[Pickaxe]

Ranger isn't a terribly useful multiclass for fighters anymore, and questionable for barbarians. Aside from starting with ranger at 1st level to get extra skills, there's nothing you can't get with two more levels of fighter.

Spot and Search? Not bad for "extra" skills.

Especially good for dwarf, who can stand at the front and spot in the dark, and find stonework traps with Stonecunning.

--Axe

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Interestingly enough, along the skill point route I was thinking just the opposite, that there are likely barbarians who do NOT treat intel as a dump stat because they actually get a respectable amount of skill points in the first place. Whereas a fighter... meh. When you're already not getting (pretty much) any skills, trying to USE them is futile, so just ignore 'em.

The Barbarian has a decent selection of class skills. A 12 Int Human Barbarian could afford to build up enough ranks in cross class social skills to fit into a city-based political intrigue game.

 

[Shadowdweller]

The Barbarian has a decent selection of class skills. A 12 Int Human Barbarian could afford to build up enough ranks in cross class social skills to fit into a city-based political intrigue game.

I can't help but note a certain irony in thinking of a "social" barbarian.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Let's test this assertion:

Heavy Armor
+5 mithral fullplate: AC 26 (13 armor, 3 dex)
+5 fullplate: AC 24 (13 armor, 1 dex)

Light armor:
Celestial Armor: AC 26 (+8 armor, 8 dex)
+5 mithral chain shirt: AC 25 (+9 armor, +6 dex)

No armor:
+8 bracers of armor: AC infinite (8 armor, infinite dex)

So, unless you're using non-core rules or applying a clvl 16+ magic vestment to a suit of Celestial Armor, you can't get a better armor class using light armor than you can using mithral fullplate.

In order to get better than mithral fullplate with no armor (and without monk levels), you need +8 bracers of armor and a 28+ dexterity. If you start with a 20 dex, you can get a dexterity of 36 by level 20. (+5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement). If you don't start with at least a 12 dexterity, you can never do better than mithral fullplate (except for the celestial armor+magic vestment trick). If you don't put your stat bumps into dex (because you need them for things like strength and con), even starting with a 20 dex, you need to get a +2 inherent bonus in order to be able to exceed the armor class available through mithral fullplate.

So, some characters can get better AC with no armor than with armor. Among armors, only Celestial Armor offers a better AC than mithral fullplate, and even then it can only do that when combined with a 26 dex and clvl 20 magic vestment.

In any event, for the vast majority of characters (who don't get to start with a 20 dex and might want to put their statbumps into strength), even bracers of armor +8 can't compete with mithral (or even normal) fullplate without inherent bonusses to dexterity--which are very pricey. And that doesn't even bring up that a character can buy +5 mithral fullplate and +6 gloves of dexterity for only a little more than the cost of the +8 bracers of armor alone (without dex gloves or inherent bonuses to dex).

Yup. And mithril medium armor counts as light armor.

Edit: Plus, at higher levels, you can get better AC with light or no armor than you can in armor.

 

[pbd]

So, unless you're using non-core rules or applying a clvl 16+ magic vestment to a suit of Celestial Armor, you can't get a better armor class using light armor than you can using mithral fullplate.

Magic vestment doesn't stack stack with armor enhancement bonus does it?

 

[Shadeus]

Magic vestment doesn't stack stack with armor enhancement bonus does it?

Doesn't stack, no. But overlaps. A 16th+ level spell caster (cleric, wizard, or sorcerer) would give a +4 enhancement bonus to the armor making it better than chainmail +3.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I can't help but note a certain irony in thinking of a "social" barbarian.

"That knight in shining armor is so uncouth compared to that charming unshaven man in the bear hides."

 

[A Man In Black]

I can't help but note a certain irony in thinking of a "social" barbarian.

Wow, someone actually used 'irony' correctly!

 

[Votan]

Also, the typical Will save achilles heal has seen our barbarians often out of the fight with confusion being the main culprit.

Some comments:

1) Barbarians get a +2 to will saves when raging, +4 if they also have indomitable will.

2) A fighter is desperate fro stat allocation. He needs Str 13+ for the power attack chain, dex 13+ (or more) for the dexterity chains and Int 13+ for the combat expertise game. It seems unlikely he is going to accept a low CON.

In a low point buy game this makes it likely that the barbarian will have an equal or higher wisdom score as neither class can afford to focus on it.

This makes a fighter more vulnerable (on average) to mind affecting magic.

3) Among the most brutal anti-PC tactics that a mind controlled PC could use is Improved Trip. With a reach weapon they can slaughter their own party as the rules are pretty nasty once you are on the ground (and escape options are limited).

Optimizing your fighter down this pathway seems hazardous as a result despite it's effectiveness.

A barbarian will do brutal damage but at least it's easier to cope with what he can do.

4) Two weapon fighting is painful (given dex requirements et al) and usually underperfiorming in my experience. Needing two magic weapons is pricey and this means neither is a bow. It's not a bad approach but usually sword + shield or 2 handed weapon seem to work better.

5) Archery is okay but no spot or listen do hurt. On the other hand, a +2 to hit and a +4 to damage isn't shabby (even at a cost of 4 feats per weapon).