Bard & Ranger variants - Balance check request

[S'mon]

Hi guys - how do you think these non-spellcasting Bard & Ranger classes stack up against the core 3.5e classes?

The Bard class loses spellcasting and gets better hit die, BAB & weapons. The Ranger class is heavily restructured (no spells, no animal companion etc), it is Feat based and gets lots of bonus feats along with d10 hit die and the 3.5e Ranger's 2 good saves & great skill list - I was worried this Ranger might be overpowered, it certainly seems better than the 3e Ranger but I guess balanced vs the 3.5e version?

1. Bard/Skald (Ea)
Hit Die: d8
BAB: 1/1
Good Saves: Ref, Will
Weapon Proficiency: All Martial & Simple
Armour Proficiency: Light armour, any shield except tower shield.
Class Skills:
The bard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Abilities: Bardic Music - PHB pg 29


2. RANGER CLASS (Ea)

Normal Rangers on Ea, like the Blood Hand of Lord Alidarn, do not get spells, but are famed for both their wilderness skills and combat abilities.

Alignment: Any.

BAB: 1/1 Good Saves: Fort, Ref.

Hit Die: d10.

Skill Points: 6/level.

The ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Weapon & Armour Proficiency: Rangers are proficient with simple & martial weapons, light armour, and shields except tower shields.

At 1st level the Ranger gets the Track feat for free.

At 2nd level, 5th, 8th,11th, 14th, 17th & 20th the Ranger may choose 1 additional Feat from the following list:


Alertness,
Blind-Fight,
Combat Reflexes
Dodge (Dex. 13+)
(Mobility, Spring Attack),
Endurance,
Exotic Weapon Proficiency* (Base Attack Bonus +1 or higher),
Expertise (Int. 13+)
(Improved Disarm, Improved Trip),
Favored Enemy (+1 dmg etc vs favoured race, PHB pg 45, may be taken multiple times)
Great Fortitude,
Improved Initiative,
Improved Unarmed Strike
(Deflect Arrows (Dex. 13+)),
Iron Will,
Lightning Reflexes,
Mounted Combat (Ride skill)
(Mounted Archery, Trample, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge),
Point Blank Shot
(Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run),
Quick Draw (BAB 1+),
Run,
Toughness,
Two-Weapon Fighting
(Improved Two-Weapon Fighting),
Weapon Finesse,
Weapon Focus
(Greater Weapon Focus BAB 8+)

 

[whydirt]

Your Bard seems underpowered compared to your Ranger. Both have the same BAB, number of good saves, and skill points. However, the Ranger gets a better HD and 8 feats compared to the Bard's music abilities. I would say your Ranger is a touch overpowered, while the Bard is a touch weak.

Some alternatives:

Ranger: I'd reduce one of the following: The HD back to d8 from d10, the Reflex save from good to poor, or the skill points from 6+Int to 4+Int.

Bard: It's tough to say what to add, other than maybe some bonus feats.

 

[Jdvn1]

Yeah, I think the Ranger is too good too. Plus he's lost some flavor and looks more like a Fighter. ... Actually, maybe the Ranger is much better than the Fighter.

 

[S'mon]

Your Bard seems underpowered compared to your Ranger. Both have the same BAB, number of good saves, and skill points. However, the Ranger gets a better HD and 8 feats compared to the Bard's music abilities. I would say your Ranger is a touch overpowered, while the Bard is a touch weak.

Some alternatives:

Ranger: I'd reduce one of the following: The HD back to d8 from d10, the Reflex save from good to poor, or the skill points from 6+Int to 4+Int.

Bard: It's tough to say what to add, other than maybe some bonus feats.

Hi Whydirt - 2, 5, 7, 10, 13, 17, 20 - 7 feats + Track, yup. It is a lot, though they don't include 'tank' stuff like the power attack tree. Thanks for feedback. I originally created my variant Ranger under 3.0 and it seemed a bit weak, but adding on the 3.5e benefits may be too much.

I'm thinking maybe give the Ranger poor Ref again; however I have a sneaking suspicion my players won't regard it is overpowered (ie desirable) even with good Ref. For the Bard, I initially gave him d10 hit die (I was referring to the version in Castles & Crusades) but then chickened out. Maybe I should trust my first inclination.

NB I'm not so fussed how they compare to each other, rather how they stack up vs the original 3.5e versions of them and the other classes.

 

[S'mon]

jdvn1 - thanks for feedback. I did want a much more Fightery Ranger, much less 'mystic' than the default version, so flavour not a problem. He gets less Feats than the Fighter, and not as good feats - no Weapon Spec/Gtr Wpn Spec, obviously. He's a better survivor, but won't lay the smackdown as well (esp as my house rules discourage missile weapon use in melee).

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, I dunno. A Fighter with 3 or 4 fewer feats over a 20 level progression, an extra good save, 4 extra skill points, a bigger skill selection... well, I guess that's a good point, though. He trades medium and heavy armor and his feat selection doesn't include the Power Attack chain. I would make the skill points no more than 4+, though.

And I'd drop Greater Weapon Focus from the list.

 

[monboesen]

I would expect to see a lot of Fighter1/Ranger X or Bard x characters. All the armor proficiencies and a bonus feat for delaying class abilities by one level. yes please. All in all a ranger looses exactly 4 skillpoints and -1 reflex save. Not a bad deal.

I also find your ranger to much like a fighter. He should get less feats and more wilderness related class abilities. If you want a more Fightery ranger take Fighter levels, thats what multiclassing is for.

From a fighters standpoint he will lose out on 3 feats total by taking only 1 fighter level and then ranger for the rest. For those three feats he gains 96! skillpoints, a much better skill list and good reflex save.

He also loose acces to the weapon specialist feats, but they aren't that good. Plenty fighters in my game never takes them as they prefer to use many different weapons.

 

[S'mon]

I would expect to see a lot of Fighter1/Ranger X or Bard x characters. All the armor proficiencies and a bonus feat for delaying class abilities by one level.

That's equally true of plenty of other combos though, eg Fighter 1 /Rogue X (or Rogue 1/Fighter X) - multiclassing is never balanced in 3e IMO. I think most Fighter players do greatly value weapon specialisation.

I've boosted the Bard to d10 hit die and I'll keep an eye on the Ranger, if more than 1 player wants to play it it may be overpowered.

 

[monboesen]

That's equally true of plenty of other combos though, eg Fighter 1 /Rogue X (or Rogue 1/Fighter X)

But its more attractive to the bard or ranger who rely less on sneaky skills and do not care about armor check penalties. Especially the bard will gain greatly. IMO the bard songs are better than fighter bonus feats. I've just spotted UMD on his skill list and that makes it really really strong. A bard character that can dumb all stats except Str and Con, take 1 level of fighter and keep UMD at the maximum. Songs will make damage output equal to a fighter or barbs and he can use any magic item as well. Looks very very strong to me.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, I'm just saying that the fighter looks pathetic compared to these classes. Or at least it would in my games where skills play an important role. So if you are going to use them I would suggest that you improved the Fighter as well.

 

[S'mon]

But its more attractive to the bard or ranger who rely less on sneaky skills and do not care about armor check penalties. Especially the bard will gain greatly. IMO the bard songs are better than fighter bonus feats. I've just spotted UMD on his skill list and that makes it really really strong. A bard character that can dumb all stats except Str and Con, take 1 level of fighter and keep UMD at the maximum. Songs will make damage output equal to a fighter or barbs and he can use any magic item as well. Looks very very strong to me.

I hadn't considered UMD as very powerful - Rogues IMC rarely seem to bother with it. Is there a particular UMD synergy with this 'combat bard' I should be aware of?