Bard/rogue/arcane trickster - viable?

[satori01]

Alt class ability for Advanced Learning ability of Warmages, Beguilers, & Dread Necromancers is to add any spell to the class list, albeit at 1 level higher. Thus 3rd level Beguiler could add Mage Hand as a 1st level spell.

 

[szilard]

Alt class ability for Advanced Learning ability of Warmages, Beguilers, & Dread Necromancers is to add any spell to the class list, albeit at 1 level higher. Thus 3rd level Beguiler could add Mage Hand as a 1st level spell.

I don't think it has ever been published as an 'official' alt class ability for the Beguiler.

The Spell Hand feat should work, though.

-Stuart

 

[moritheil]

(Basically allowing them to use an Advanced Learning pick to learn Mage Hand as a 1st level spell.)

That is the option I was referring to. Sorry I didn't remember the precise name.

 

[Felix]

Arcane Trickster is underpowered to start with. Bard is underpowered to start with.

A rogue/arcane trickster would, I fear, be quite overshadowed by many other builds.

Essentially what you'd have is a spellcasting rogue. At 10th level you'd be Bard 7 / Rogue 3 and able to enter the class; you'd thereafter get arguably the best from the bard class with its spells and the best ability from the rogue.

CHA is often a dump stat for many casters, but now you need to prioritize it.

We are talking about a Bard. Sorcerers often have a good CHA too. But I get the MAD issue; that has more to do with INT being important for skills than CHA being a casting stat.

All in all I think it would be something built for flavor rather than combat effectiveness.

It might not make a bad single-player game PC, though.

 

[Thurbane]

OK, here's the rundown:

Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.

Hand of the Mage: This mummified elf hand hangs by a golden chain around a character’s neck (taking up space as a magic necklace would). It allows the wearer to utilize the spell mage hand at will.

Faint transmutation; CL 2nd; Craft Wondrous Item, mage hand; Price 900 gp;Weight 2 lb.

SPELL HAND
You possess a magical understanding of the manipulation of force.

Benefit: An innate talent for magic grants you the following spell-like abilities as a 1st-level caster: 1/day - mage hand, open/close, Tenser's floating disk. Save DC 10 + spell level + your Cha modifier.

 

[nittanytbone]

Essentially what you'd have is a spellcasting rogue. At 10th level you'd be Bard 7 / Rogue 3 and able to enter the class; you'd thereafter get arguably the best from the bard class with its spells and the best ability from the rogue.

Sure, you'd have a spellcasting rogue, but it'd be... well, sucky.

We are talking about a Bard. Sorcerers often have a good CHA too. But I get the MAD issue; that has more to do with INT being important for skills than CHA being a casting stat.

The good (perhaps I should say, "not so bad") thing about a sorcerer is that you only need to invest 6 levels before you hop into AT, and you only need 12 to 14ish CHA (to start with, at least). Even then its not great, even for "blasting" a ton of orbs a day, now that there are Focused Specialists (who gets similar spells per day with more spells known) or Reserve Feats (providing great-sling-orb-all-day power for a single feat).

Bottom Line: A "simple" Wizard/Rogue --> AT will have almost as many skills and be vastly more effective.

The Wizard/Rogue needs will pick up 5 wizard levels for a total of 10 + INT SP. They can dump CHA entirely, down to 8, instead of needing 16 CHA. That frees up 10 point-buy points, which could raise your 16 INT to 18 and then boost another essential stat (likely DEX or CON) to boot! The higher INT mitigates the loss of SP to some degree (a high degree if you have lower point buy).

Also, think about it... What's better -- access to higher level spells or a few extra SP? I think the extra spells are almost always better. What's the point of having high Craft skills when you could have Fabricate, for example?

 

[Felix]

Sure, you'd have a spellcasting rogue, but it'd be... well, sucky.

For combat? Absolutely.

The good (perhaps I should say, "not so bad") thing about a sorcerer is that you only need to invest 6 levels before you hop into AT, and you only need 12 to 14ish CHA (to start with, at least). Even then its not great, even for "blasting" a ton of orbs a day, now that there are Focused Specialists (who gets similar spells per day with more spells known) or Reserve Feats (providing great-sling-orb-all-day power for a single feat).

And the Bard/Rogue/AT wouldn't be a blaster so that kind of comparison is somewhat clumsy. The spells chosen from the Bard list would likely be those that assist his rogueing duties instead of improving his combat ability. Cure spells, Calm Emotions, Silence, Modify Memory, and Glibness are all spells that the neither the Wizard nor Sorcerer will have access to. Calm Emotions and Modify Memory notwithstanding, there are also a lot of spells that don't have targets: he won't need a high CHA because he won't need high saving throws.

Bottom Line: A "simple" Wizard/Rogue --> AT will have almost as many skills and be vastly more effective.

*shrug* More effective at what? They won't be doing the same things. It's like saying an archer is more effective at ranged combat than a sword-and-board guy. They really would be two very different characters.

The Wizard/Rogue needs will pick up 5 wizard levels for a total of 10 + INT SP. They can dump CHA entirely, down to 8, instead of needing 16 CHA. That frees up 10 point-buy points, which could raise your 16 INT to 18 and then boost another essential stat (likely DEX or CON) to boot! The higher INT mitigates the loss of SP to some degree (a high degree if you have lower point buy).

With regard to the CHA-dump, you're quite right. The Bard/Rogue/AT is going to need CHA, and that's not a powergamer's avenue. It's much better if you can dump CHA and make your character more of a beefcake in other ways. Unless you'd rather play a character that feels at home interacting with other characters.

With regard to skill points, the Bard doesn't need a high CHA for saving throws because of the high proportion of self-targeting spells, so he can afford to have a non-dump INT; the Wizard/Rogue does not have the same relationship with CHA. The total effect will be that while ground will be made up for the Wizard because of the high INT, he won't make up as much as you'd first think.

Also, of the required skills, only Disable Device is a non-class skill for the Bard, and only Knowledge (arcane) is a non-class skill for Rogue. This means that the Bard/Rogue will have much greater freedom when choosing their skills than the Wizard/Rogue; much greater freedom, and a much better selection (the bard's skill list being perhaps the most desirable of all classes). In this, a 2-level delayed entry to the PrC allows the player to be more lackadaisical in his skill-point allotment, and won't be forced to focus his skills too much.

Also, think about it... What's better -- access to higher level spells or a few extra SP? I think the extra spells are almost always better. What's the point of having high Craft skills when you could have Fabricate, for example?

What's the point of riding a bicycle when you can drive a car?

Sure, the high-level wizard can cast Fabricate, but there's something appealing in being able to do something extraordinary with skills, with your mundane ability, without resort to spells. Naturally, wizards would have something to say about that.

 

[s-dub]

What's the point of having high Craft skills when you could have Fabricate, for example?

Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

 

[karechar]

a bard and sorc. can replace their cha for dex or con
using the feats:

skyborn sorcery
dwarf, dex 15, lvl 1
use dex instead of cha for all spell casting
-2 saves vs fire based spells
can nevver cast abjuration spels

stone born sorcery
dwarf, con 13, lvl1
use con instead of cha for all spell casting
can never cast enchantment spells

flameborn sorcery
dwarf, dex 13, lvl1
use dex instead of cha for all spell casting
-2 saves vs cold based spells
can nevver cast transmutation spells

and if you are luckey your dm can see through the dwarf prequisits