Bardic Song, the Message Spell and the can of worms

[Gnimish88]

The subject of using Bardic Song to inspire competence came up the other night and a thought occured to one of the players:

If you are using a purely vocal method to perform bardic song, could you convey it with the Message spell, provided the listener was within the 90' effect radius? It seemed silly at first, but, particularly if the bard is using poetics, why not? The only reason why not that I can think of is that the magic doesn't convey the power in the same way as hearing it directly does.

If you did allow message to convey bardic song, would you allow the bard to inspire confidence in move silently or other skills where a bard singing next to you would tend to negate the effect? If the bard holds his cloak over his mouth to muffle the whispering, it ought to be pretty quiet, even at 30'.

Now comes the can of worms:
Since message has no saving throw, allows no spell resistance, and has medium range, it could be potentially unbalancing to allow it to carry magical effects. Would it convey cast spells, such as Suggestion, where hearing the casters voice is required for the spell to have effect?

Any thoughts or 'suggestions' out there?

Signed,
Not-Playing-A-Spellcaster-Just-Like-The-Mental-Exercise

 

[dcollins]

No. Message transmits whispered messages, not magical effects.

 

[Piratecat]

Also, the bard has to be playing for a whole round before the bonus takes effect. Message isn't like a radio.

Sneaky thinking, though.

 

[Mista Collins]

well if a DM were to all Message to deliver spells like Suggestion I am sure the target would still get a saving throw for the actual Suggestion spell because it is the Suggestion spell that the target is being influenced by not the Message

But as dcollins says, it delivers whispered messages, not magical effects.

And as Piratecat says it is sneaky thinking. I might have to house rule it. I like the idea too much.

 

[ConspiracyAngel]

Message...

Also, the bard has to be playing for a whole round before the bonus takes effect. Message isn't like a radio.

Sneaky thinking, though.

_____________________________
Message does not say that you cannot whisper for a straight 6 seconds (1 round). Also, there are some Bardic Music abilities that do not take a full round action to use...

These are SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES, not spells themselves.

 

[ConspiracyAngel]

Bardic Music & Message

Let's say that a Bard casts message on an ally. The enemies are in the next room. And the Rogus is attempting to unlock a door. The Bard would cast message on an ally, then begin to chant for Inspire Competence.... but would chant in a whisper, with his cloak covering his mouth... This is a pretty quite way to do it... No?

Then, let's say a Bard casts message on an enemy, then begins to fascinate them (Will Save)... if the creature fails that Will Save, then the Bard may initiate suggestion by whispering to that enemy (messaged, and fascinated) and per the v3.5 PHB they are NOT allowed another Will Save against Suggestion.

 

[Tarlonniel]

Also, the bard has to be playing for a whole round before the bonus takes effect.

per the v3.5 PHB they are NOT allowed another Will Save against Suggestion.

Can someone point me to the 3.5 SRD/PHB sections that elaborate on these two points?

 

[Thanee]

Can someone point me to the 3.5 SRD/PHB sections that elaborate on these two points?

Quite unlikely, because they are both wrong.

About the Suggestion save... ConspiracyAngel must have confused that one with the rule, that the Suggestion does not break the required Fascinate and doesn't allow a second save against that, but of course there is a save to negate the Suggestion itself. Why should they list a save DC if there is no save, anyways?

Piratecat seems to refer to the 3.0 Bardic Music ability, IIRC you needed to play a full round prior to having any effect back then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[ConspiracyAngel]

I am corrected, but have question

... ConspiracyAngel must have confused that one with the rule, that the Suggestion does not break the required Fascinate and doesn't allow a second save against that, but of course there is a save to negate the Suggestion itself. Why should they list a save DC if there is no save, anyways?

You are correct... there is a save for suggestion, and I meant no second save for Fascinate... Yes there is a Will Save for Suggestion. Also noting, there is no save for Message.

I do have a question though... these are Special Abilities that produce Magical Effects. I understand that the Message spell does not specify this, ... and I also understand that it is not the intent of the spell... but Why could a player not use a spell and induce other magical effects through it.

 

[Thanee]

Why could a player not use a spell and induce other magical effects through it.

Because that's not what the spell does. The spell transmits messages. Nothing else.

And regardless of whether this is possible or not, it would change nothing about how the actual effect transmitted is resolved (saves and such).

Bye
Thanee