Bards, Badass or Not

[Cavall]

I really think putting a melee fighter up against a party buffer is rather silly. None of this measures anything. Besides, you are betting the farm on someone that can't fight another person that is invisible, greased armoured and blinking with haste. Not to mention capable of producing fear effects.

But thats kind of my point. the Bard shines as a party BUFFER. Better than any class really because unlike many other classes that COULD buff you, a bard WILL buff you. That doesn't make him inferior, it makes a party as a whole superior. All the powers I mentioned there are going to be given to you as a monk, not taken as a weapon against you.

In that sense, for promoting party cohesion over "rewarding the specialist", the bard stands alone as the greatest class in the game. He allows everyone to shine rather than a few people wait in the back ground while the specialst of the hour does the task at hand.

That is what I want from a DND group. Parties that party together, not wait in line to be useful. Bard insure it, and enforce it. Best leader and buffer class in the game, and from a roleplaying standpoint, unequalled.

 

[Dandu]

Well, I think monk is the weakest class in core, but I also like martial arts and asian-themed stuff in general, so I like the class anyway. I'll provide a baseline for Dandu to compare a Bard 20 to. I'll assume PH/DMG/MM only, 32 point buy and no multiclassing? If MCing is ok, it REALLY would benefit a core monk to dip a caster class for wand and scroll access. Oh, and no using the Leadership feat, ok?
Not doing magic items yet, that's always the biggest pain to figure out for high levels. As an elf, he definitely takes advantage of the longbow proficiency to have a respectable ranged option, and can fight unarmed easily without needing to drop the bow.

Wood Elf Monk 20
Starting: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
At 20 (before magic items): Str 20, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8

Feats:
1 Improved Grapple
3 Power Attack
6 Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
9 Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12 Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
15 Improved Initiative
18 Cleave

Monk bonus feats: Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows (with no reach weapon or splat book feats, I don't think Combat Reflexes means much, swap if you disagree), Improved Trip

Skill ranks:
Balance 5
Jump 5
Listen 23
Sense Motive 12
Spot 23
Tumble 12

Tactics: Shoot the bow and run around really fast to harass enemies; flurry of misses and/or ground and pound when in melee and doing so isn't suicidal. Beg the DM to let you throw away Perfect Self for no return benefit at all since losing Enlarge Person is a greater penalty than anything some crappy monk capstone ability could ever hope to be.

Mind you, I was thinking out of core with Two Weapon Fighting, Snowflake Wardance and Dragonfire Inspiration, with the associated pimping of Inspire Courage. (Or Swiftblade/Sublime Chord. Or Swiftblade/Arcane Duelist. Or a Lyric Spell persist bard. Hm...)

Bards suffer in core due to a lack of options for gishing. It would be unreasonable to suggest that in core, a bard can out perform a monk in combat. (Well, as far as damage goes.) That being said, if we want to do this in core I'm sure it would be informative to some of the readers so I present this. I think it could still use some work, though. Any advice on how to improve it will be appreciated.

I figure since Alter Self can be active for hours (6 with Extend), we can count that as being on for the adventuring day. I favor the Troglodyte for the natural armor and bite attack. Same with Hero's Feast.

I'll note that it needs some buffing to get going. On the plus side, you increase the power of the party when you start casting things like Haste or singing.

 

[Nifft]

Barbarian dip is especially nice for archery if you can use Whirling Frenzy instead of normal rage, for the extra attack. But I guess if we're talking about core rules that's not an option (not to mention lack of the Extra Rage feat or other means to get it more than once/day as a low level barb).

Yeah, it's true that Whirling Frenzy is very strong. It's the opposite use-case from the regular Rage, though: the Core-only Bardarian uses his Rage as an emergency unavoidable melee consolation prize. The Whirling Frenzy Bardarian uses his Frenzy to enhance his normal attack of choice (archery). It's the difference between flexibility and alpha-striking.

However, if we're going outside of Core, then the Whirling Frenzy barb faces competition from the Warblade, which has some great explicit support for Inspire Courage (and is all around hella fun).

Cheers, -- N

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

To be fair, Rage is intended to be a barbarian's "alpha strike" ability. It just so happens with archery that you're doing doing an atypical build and the conventional wisdom of how/if abilities are useful gets changed.

I've seen the Warblade archer build, looks nice at level 20, wouldn't want to play him getting there. If doing a bard multiclass w/ Song of the White Raven, I'd prefer Crusader for minor charisma synergy and free action maneuver refreshing anyway, I think.

 

[Nifft]

To be fair, Rage is intended to be a barbarian's "alpha strike" ability. It just so happens with archery that you're doing doing an atypical build and the conventional wisdom of how/if abilities are useful gets changed.

That's true. In my build, I use the Barbarian's primary attack as a backup threat -- don't get into melee or you'll make me angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

I've seen the Warblade archer build, looks nice at level 20, wouldn't want to play him getting there. If doing a bard multiclass w/ Song of the White Raven, I'd prefer Crusader for minor charisma synergy and free action maneuver refreshing anyway, I think.

I picked the Warblade for equality with the Barbarian's HP and skill points, but the Crusader is great too.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flatus Maximus]

A very simple and efficient Bard archer build is just Barbarian 1 / Bard ++.

I''m curious: Can you say a bit more about this? The bow is strung higher than can normally be drawn, but with rage we go to town?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

More likely when you rage you forfeit the extra damage because 3E hates archers and a decent priced strength adjusting bow is rarer than starmetal. Which is why I mentioned Whirling Frenzy, so you at least get an extra attack out of the deal. Otherwise, as Nifft said, regular rage would be more of a "Plan B" if forced into melee/grappling.

There is the Bow of the Wintermoon if you happen to be an Elf (pretty horrible race for bard and barbarian, though some of the subraces suck less) and have access to Magic Item Compendium. I think that's the only cheap priced str-adjusting bow in the entire game, though I'd love to be wrong.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Also, Bone Bow and Hank's Energy Bow, IIRC. Bone Bow is in Frostburn, but firing one shot is a full round action at -4 unless you burn a feat on EWP. Hank's Energy Bow is from the wizards website.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah yeah, Hank's bow basically single handedly solves every single major issue an archer in 3E has. Assuming force bolts give wind wall the finger, pretty much covers all your bases.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Also, True Strike + Full PA + Multishot = win. Since Multishot is just a single attack roll, True Strike affects all arrows. Since the Energy Bow's PA effect is not precision-based, it affects each arrow.

BOOM! HEAD SHOT!