Bards - Why do so few people play them?

[Psychotic Jim]

I think one of the main problems is that many people shoe-horn the bard into a particular role: that of an annoyingly up-beat, everly optimistic, ruffle-wearing, squeamish pansy, when the bard could be possibly serve other roles. A bard does not even have to be musical; he or she could just as easily recite poetry or give a stirring battle speech or even play comedian and insult the opponents. I think maybe the term "bard" has some stigma to it in gaming circles, and had the class had some other name, it might get more attention.

Also, maybe the options of multi-classing may influence people into thinking that they can achieve the "jack-of-all-trades" better with just putting levels into multiple classes instead of just the bard.

 

[Crothian]

Crothian mentioned:
"They can fight as well if not better then a rogue or cleric."

This statement is just flat untrue unless you are referring to a multiclassed Bard. Rogues have Sneak Attack which is an awesome advantage in combat (I don't think I need to point out the various "Rogues better than Fighters?!" threads that pop up in Rules from time to time) and Clerics can self-buff themselves to a point where they are at least the equal of, if not better than, a straight-class Fighter. The Bards music ability helps out at lower levels, but is quickly outmatched by the Clerics boosting spells. They do get some nice buff-spells of their own, but Bards suffer the problem of arcane spell failure if they wear armor (which blows, and why they gave Bards arcane spellcasting ability AND armor proficiency without somehow reconciling the two, I have no idea). Clerics don't have this problem.

They can if they go that way. Bards have some great buff spelss too. They have better range of weapons then the Rogue and we all know his sneak attack is only a sometime thing. However, it is easier to min amx a cleric or rogue towards fighting, but not all of us are talking from that point since we don't see that in our games.

 

[Olive]

everypne knows that bards are a great 5th party member. but i think they're a good allrounded for solo play too (which is what xilo is doing, not that she said it).

they have the decent fighting ability, a nice mix of spells incl healing and a good number of skill points. You won't be solo killing dragons, but then again, who will be?

 

[Xilo]

You won't be solo killing dragons, but then again, who will be?

WHAT???? you mean that ancient great red wyrm up the road is going to have to wait??? bummer....

 

[Droogie]

One area where Bards do well is the multiclassing department. A couple of levels in Bard are great when mixed with Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, or even Rogue.

I disagree. I took a level of rogue to munch him up a bit, and I regretted it. Granted, I took the rogue level after starting as bard, but I still wish I had stayed a pure bard. His abilities are so varied that to multiclass him only dilutes his best stuff, like his spells and bardic knowledge.

But anyway, I think one reason why he isn't too popular is because its hard to get a good set of scores to play one. Since he's a jack-of-all-trades, he could basically benefit from a good score in every one of his abilites, with Int and Cha obviously the biggies. If you roll up two negative scores for a bard, its heck on earth trying to figure out where to put them.

He adds lots of flavor to a party, but thats about it. IF you have a meat-and-potatoes party of a fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue, the bard provides some gravy if you want it.

I'm hungry.

 

[Apok]

They can if they go that way. Bards have some great buff spelss too.

They do indeed, but in order to use them effectively they better not be wearing any armor. Magical items and Mage Armor can help with this, but the former are expensive and without taking a PrC, the Bard is unlikely to have the AC to hold his own in a stand-up fight. Clerics, as I've said, don't have this problem since they can wear super-enchanted heavy armor with a shield. Also, I find that the quality of a Clerics buff spells outstrips those of a Bard of equivalent level, especially for enhancing their own combat prowess.

They have better range of weapons then the Rogue and we all know his sneak attack is only a sometime thing.

They do have a larger weapon selection, I'll grant. Regarding sneak attacks, any Rogue worth his salt is going to find ways to get his sneak attack damage as often as possible. Grab Spring Attack, double team it with a Monk or Fighter, use Bluff & Expert Tactician, etc. A Bard just can't compete with that kind of damage unless you pull some funky multiclassing or are dealing with things that are immune to crits.

However, it is easier to min amx a cleric or rogue towards fighting, but not all of us are talking from that point since we don't see that in our games.

Personally, I always assume players are going to min/max at some level. Why? Well, why not? Unless they know the DM is a softie who doesn't like to challange his players, they are going to design their characters to be the best and most efficient at what they do. Archer-types are going to have lots of cool ranged feats and abilities. Sneak-Attack monkeys will likely grab Ambi&TWF combined with Quicker than the Eye and Expert Tactician. Battle Clerics will find a God that allows them to take the Strength and/or Destruction domain and self-buff before combat.

To say that Bards are just as good as Rogues and Clerics in combat as long as the Rogues and Clerics aren't efficiently designed or use their strengths to the best of their abilities is kinda absurd, don't you think? I'm not trying to pick a fight here, Crothian, but I am seriously not getting your logic on that last statement. Yes, I know that not all players are going to look for good feat/skill/spell combos that will make their characters work well in combat, but I don't think we should assume that they are the norm. I'm not even talking about Smackdown! quality stuff here, just some basic tactics and wise character development choices will make Rogues and Clerics better combatants than Bards.

 

[Nightfall]

Well since Sigil plugged his product, I think it only fair to plug ours.

Bards can be useful and fun, even in an adventure setting such as the Scarred Lands. You just have to know how to do it. I mean without the Mourners of Hollowfaust, there be a large gap in the "coolness" factor of such a fine city.

While I'm not a big fan of them, I do think when the Player's Guide for Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers comes out, more people (at least I HOPE more people) will want to try out the bard class. (Here's a tip folks. Bardic spellcasting does NOT cause heat! Wizards and sorcerers still do )

Btw I wish I had Mike Gill here. He could say more...maybe.

 

[Apok]

I disagree. I took a level of rogue to munch him up a bit, and I regretted it. Granted, I took the rogue level after starting as bard, but I still wish I had stayed a pure bard. His abilities are so varied that to multiclass him only dilutes his best stuff, like his spells and bardic knowledge.

Curious, what did your level breakdown look like? Usually, the best way to multiclass is to take one or two levels of one class and go the rest in another. Going Rogue 2/Bard X is nice since it doesn't dilute the level-dependants that much and you get Evasion and extra skill points. Fighter 2/Bard X grab you two extra feats, Barb 1/Bard X gives you that nice d12 Hit Die, Rage and Fast Movement, and Ranger 1/Bard X nets you Track, Ambidex and TWF for free plus you get a Favored Enemy. Just a level or two in another class can really spice things up for the Bard, but you're right they do get the least benefit from a Rogue MC.

On the other hand, if you want a Fighting Bard, just reverse the paradigm. Bard 1/Fighter X, Bard 1/Barbarian X, or Bard 1/Ranger X. Of course, with the Ranger class you are still probably better off just taking one level of Ranger and the rest Bard unless you really want the extra BAB.

I'm hungry.

Yeah, me too. Hmmm... Mashed Potatoes & Gravy... *drool*

 

[Crothian]

Well since Sigil plugged his product, I think it only fair to plug ours.

"Ours" ?, so you carrying around some staff members in your pocket or what?

I know Nightfall wrote some stuff in there, I just felt the world should know as well

 

[Apok]

While I'm not a big fan of them, I do think when the Player's Guide for Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers comes out, more people (at least I HOPE more people) will want to try out the bard class. (Here's a tip folks. Bardic spellcasting does NOT cause heat! Wizards and sorcerers still do )

Damn you, Nightfall, you tease! If you're going to pimp a product, at least get us some more of the gory details!