Base attack bonus and Invisibility

[InvincibleWall]

Hello everyone, I have some questions about 3.5e

1. If you take 1 level in Ninja (BAB 0-15) and one level in Swordsage (BAB 0-15) does that mean you have 0 BAB?


2. As the DM how do you fairly deal with an invisible player? A monster is supposed to have no clue where the player is, so does the monster just stop attacking the player that went invisible and starts attacking someone else or does it swing randomly in the air trying to find the player. Now if the monster is still trying to attack the invisible player how am I supposed to fairly "guess" where the player is if I already know where he is? I could "decide" that the monster does or doesn't know where the player is but this will get old when the monster somehow walks up to the player and attacks him, overcomes concealment and hits the player. Also do invisible players provoke AoO? Does an invisible player give any hint that it is there if it walks past a monster? Also what if two players are for some reason invisible and trying to hide from eachother, how do I pull that off on 1 grid without letting the other player know where the other is?

 

[kitcik]

Hello everyone, I have some questions about 3.5e

1. If you take 1 level in Ninja (BAB 0-15) and one level in Swordsage (BAB 0-15) does that mean you have 0 BAB?

RAW, yes. There is a variant rule called partial BAB. I am not sure how it works.

2. As the DM how do you fairly deal with an invisible player? A monster is supposed to have no clue where the player is, so does the monster just stop attacking the player that went invisible and starts attacking someone else or does it swing randomly in the air trying to find the player. Now if the monster is still trying to attack the invisible player how am I supposed to fairly "guess" where the player is if I already know where he is? I could "decide" that the monster does or doesn't know where the player is but this will get old when the monster somehow walks up to the player and attacks him, overcomes concealment and hits the player.

If the monster has an ability like scent or tremorsense et al, they may be able to find the general location or even exact location. Also, if the player does anything that could cause sound (like moving), or if the terrain is such that obvious tracks are left (sand, snow, mud), that could also provide location info. Finally, the absence of sound would probably cause the monster to attack the same general square as previously.

Also do invisible players provoke AoO? Does an invisible player give any hint that it is there if it walks past a monster? Also what if two players are for some reason invisible and trying to hide from eachother, how do I pull that off on 1 grid without letting the other player know where the other is?

AoO - I don't know the RAW on this.

two invis on one grid - if they can't detect each other, I would pull out my Battleship game.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Hello everyone, I have some questions about 3.5e

1. If you take 1 level in Ninja (BAB 0-15) and one level in Swordsage (BAB 0-15) does that mean you have 0 BAB?

Partial BAB works like this:
Fighter gains 1 BAB per level.
Rogue gains 3/4 BAB per level. Round down.
Wizard gains 1/2 BAB per level. Round down.

So, if you have it simple enough that your character is composed entirely of multiple classes that share the same BAB progression, just follow that BAB progression. For example, my Monk1/Druid1/Ninja3/Cleric1/Rogue2 follows the normal 0,1,2,3,3,4,5,6,... because they all share the same 3/4 progression.

If it's complicated, like the Rogue/Wizard/Ninja/Cleric/Sorcerer/Fighter/Druid multiclass character, follow the partial BAB progression. For example:

Level 1 Rogue: (3/4)~ 0
Level 2 Wizard: (1/2 + 3/4=1 1/4)~ 1
Level 3 Ninja: (3/4 + 1 1/4= 2)~ 2
Level 4 Cleric: (3/4 + 2= 2 3/4)~ 2
Level 5 Sorcerer: (1/2 + 2 3/4= 3 1/4)~ 3
Level 6 Fighter: (1 + 3 1/4= 4 1/4)~ 4
Level 7 Druid: (3/4 + 4 1/4= 5)~ 5

...etc. If you went with the flat BAB progression, your Rogue/Wizard/Ninja/Cleric/Sorcerer/Fighter/Druid would have a BAB of 1.

2. As the DM how do you fairly deal with an invisible player? A monster is supposed to have no clue where the player is, so does the monster just stop attacking the player that went invisible and starts attacking someone else or does it swing randomly in the air trying to find the player. Now if the monster is still trying to attack the invisible player how am I supposed to fairly "guess" where the player is if I already know where he is? I could "decide" that the monster does or doesn't know where the player is but this will get old when the monster somehow walks up to the player and attacks him, overcomes concealment and hits the player. Also do invisible players provoke AoO? Does an invisible player give any hint that it is there if it walks past a monster? Also what if two players are for some reason invisible and trying to hide from eachother, how do I pull that off on 1 grid without letting the other player know where the other is?

Read this.

 

[scott2978]

As Kitcik said, by RAW your BAB is equal to the BAB of all your classes added together, so a Wizard 1/Rogue 1 would have BAB 0 for instance.

You'll need to brush up on the invisibility rules for this PC, but because the Ninja's invisibility only lasts for 1 round at a time you shouldn't have much trouble with it.

But if you do...
Trolls are the perfect PC hunters - they have Scent, Track, 10' reach and good spot and listen modifiers.

First, the Troll will automatically notice the invisible Ninja as soon as he comes within 40-60' due to the Troll having Scent. As soon as the Ninja is within hearing range, the Troll then gets a Listen check as a free action, with the DC being the Ninja's Move Silent roll. What? The Ninja forgot to say he's Moving Silently? Well then it's DC10! Better luck next time Mr Ninja. Then, the Troll also gets a DC20 Spot check any time the Ninja comes within 30' to notice that "something's there". None of this will pinpoint the location of the Ninja, but all you really need is for the Troll to know that he's out there. Because then, all the Troll needs to do is Ready an action to Claw (or even Grapple!) the Ninja as soon as he attacks. You *dont* need to tell the PC that the Troll is doing any of that BTW. Yes, Trolls only have a INT 6. But even animals, all of which have an INT of 2, can figure out how to stalk and ambush prey and a Troll is 3 times as smart as an animal.

"You sneak up on the Troll, nearly invisible as you draw your sword to strike... but suddenly you get a bad feeling, and just before you attack, the Troll's head suddenly turns in your direction, it's eye's wild with anticipation, it's nostrils flaring, and it utters a shrill battle scream as it lunges towards you, grasping and grabbing and gibbering 'Mines, mines! Mines little meat-thingses!' As you feel the unclean claws sink into your flesh, you know that this may be the last time you ever sneak up on a Troll!"

Besides Trolls, you can use guard dogs (or other animals with Scent) for your monster's bases and also traps to betray especially sneaky PCs. Anyone with the Blind Fight feat gets a second chance to hit, and ther are some monsters that have Blindsense (Grimlocks). There is also the fact that most undead can't be sneak attacked, so even if they lose their Dex bonus due to an invisible attacker, their AC usually doesn't change much. But like I said because the Ninja can only be invisible for 1 round at a time it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Let the player get away with a few nice sneak attacks before dropping the Troll on him, or an enemy he thinks is a human is actually a Vampire

 

[LiL KiNG]

1. Has been answered, yes by RAW you have a BAB of 0. However, I do like the partial BAB progression formula, makes mixing classes with 3/4 progression (like a cleric/rouge) viable in combat still. I've always hated how if you mixed classes with 3/4 progression you'd only ever end up with a 14 BAB at level 20, thus losing your third attack: +14/+9 vs. +15/+10/+5.

2. A creature still gets spot/listen checks against an invisible opponent, though with heavy penalties. Typically I'd have a creature attack the same square the PC just went invisible from on its turn unless the PC did something that made the monster aware it moved.
Really depends on the creature though, a monster may attack at where the thing was, but a savvy Rogue NPC might actually take a step back and ready an action against the PC attacking. Look more at what your creatures are and their abilities before deciding on a blanket 'cure' for this, different creatures should react differently. There are plenty of ways around invisibility though. For monsters things like scent (remember too, if within 5' of a creature with scent it can pinpoint your location), tremorsense, blindsense, etc. And for PC's there are lots of magic items, spells (glitterdust), mundane items (bag of flour is my favorite), and even a skill trick to spot an invisible creature for 1 round - though this takes 12 ranks in Spot before you can purchase the skill trick, so level 9 minimum before this option is useful.

A theory came up in my group recently that the Feat Blind-fight is great, aside from the rolling two miss chances against an invisible opponent, and that they get no bonus to attack against you. It's also great against invisible rogue-like characters because you keep your Dex bonus against their attack, thus denying sneak attack damage (unless flanked without imp uncanny dodge). Not sure if that is how it should work, but that's how we reasoned it out.

 

[InvincibleWall]

1. Which method do most DMs use? My DM says that he rarely allows multiclass but he let me do it, letting me create my character as I wished. So is partial BAB a commonly used rule since it makes things more interesting or is it likely to be ruled as "broken" by my DM? I know the easiest way to find out is to ask him but I have never heard of partial BAB he likely hasn't either so I would like to be able to offer Partial BAB as a cool addition not a rule that gives me an edge.

2. I know that I can act the character or monster to seem like they didn't know where the player was, but in the end I still made a decision based on where the player was, not all creatures would attack the same square but again not all of them would be smart enough to ready an attack either. So when the Ogre starts running around swinging his club around at nothing, I would be deciding myself weather or not it was the right square or not. Should I allow the player to write his move down on a piece of paper, make my guess (in character with the creature) and then look at the paper? Also if an invisible character attacks something and hits, does the target pinpoint the invisible character automatically or do they get a sense of the general direction of the attack? Alternatively what if they miss, do they even know the invisible character is there yet?

 

[Nebten]

Most DMs use the rules found in the PHB. Partial BAB would be pretty rare. I wouldn't start using advanced rules if you don't know the basics already.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

1. Which method do most DMs use? My DM says that he rarely allows multiclass but he let me do it, letting me create my character as I wished. So is partial BAB a commonly used rule since it makes things more interesting or is it likely to be ruled as "broken" by my DM? I know the easiest way to find out is to ask him but I have never heard of partial BAB he likely hasn't either so I would like to be able to offer Partial BAB as a cool addition not a rule that gives me an edge.

For me and Mine, we play with the partial BAB progression, but we also heavily encourage multiclassing.

Unearthed Arcana, page 73 has the Fractal Base Bonus progression.

 

[LiL KiNG]

Invisible creature can interact with certain objects without breaking the invisibility, attacking however ends the effect so he would become visible after his first attack roll (unless using greater invisibility).

From the SRD:
Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

 

[irdeggman]

An ivisibile creature can't generate an AoO from an opponent that he is invisible to.

You can't make an AoO against a creature that has total concealment to you.

Invisibility grants total concealment.