InvincibleWall
First Post
What happens when in combat, a player walks into a blind (no blindsense) NPC who is invisible are there any AoO?
Base attack bonus and Invisibility
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Wyvernhand
First Post
Couple things that haven't been mentioned. If you are invisible and you attack someone adjacent, they know from which square they were attacked from.
Ok, now into the meat and potatoes. There are really 4 states of being with invisibility. There is completely unaware, aware, pinpointed, and unaffected. Unaware is as it sounds. You don't know an invisible for is there, and can't or shouldnt react to it. If you make the DC 20 spot check mentioned above, or somehow otherwised recognized that there is an invisible around, you are aware. If you know the exact 5' square the foe is in, you have pinpointed them. If you can see invisible people, you are unaffected.
Pinpointing is the thing that is most mentioned in the rules. You can pinpoint a foe with a spot or listen check, if you roll high enough (as outlined in the invisibility rules). You can also pinpoint a foe with Scent, BlindSENSE, Tremorsense, and the like, according to their respective rules.
If you pinpoint a foe, you know their 5' square. You can always attack the right square, but the foe has full concealment (50% miss chance, no precision damage). If conditions change, you might need to pinpoint your for again (another check, another move action with Scent). You still can't target them with targetted spells (like Charm Person) but you could still hit them with AoEs like Fireball with no problem. Ranged Touches (and Melee Touches) are still possible, but as attacks, they are still affected by total concealment.
So yea, when running a monster, you have to ask yourself, how aware is my monster. An unaware monster shouldn't react at all. An aware monster might investigate, flee, find friends, cast spells like See Invisible, swing blindly (I use dice for this), or the like. A foe who pinpoints you needs to make a tactical decision about whether its easier to attack you with full concealment or do something else. A foe who is unaffected (like one with BlindSIGHT or See Invisible) would react normally to someone.
Not too hard.
Ok, now into the meat and potatoes. There are really 4 states of being with invisibility. There is completely unaware, aware, pinpointed, and unaffected. Unaware is as it sounds. You don't know an invisible for is there, and can't or shouldnt react to it. If you make the DC 20 spot check mentioned above, or somehow otherwised recognized that there is an invisible around, you are aware. If you know the exact 5' square the foe is in, you have pinpointed them. If you can see invisible people, you are unaffected.
Pinpointing is the thing that is most mentioned in the rules. You can pinpoint a foe with a spot or listen check, if you roll high enough (as outlined in the invisibility rules). You can also pinpoint a foe with Scent, BlindSENSE, Tremorsense, and the like, according to their respective rules.
If you pinpoint a foe, you know their 5' square. You can always attack the right square, but the foe has full concealment (50% miss chance, no precision damage). If conditions change, you might need to pinpoint your for again (another check, another move action with Scent). You still can't target them with targetted spells (like Charm Person) but you could still hit them with AoEs like Fireball with no problem. Ranged Touches (and Melee Touches) are still possible, but as attacks, they are still affected by total concealment.
So yea, when running a monster, you have to ask yourself, how aware is my monster. An unaware monster shouldn't react at all. An aware monster might investigate, flee, find friends, cast spells like See Invisible, swing blindly (I use dice for this), or the like. A foe who pinpoints you needs to make a tactical decision about whether its easier to attack you with full concealment or do something else. A foe who is unaffected (like one with BlindSIGHT or See Invisible) would react normally to someone.
Not too hard.
Wyvernhand
First Post
Couple things that haven't been mentioned. If you are invisible and you attack someone adjacent, they know from which square they were attacked from.
Ok, now into the meat and potatoes. There are really 4 states of being with invisibility. There is completely unaware, aware, pinpointed, and unaffected. Unaware is as it sounds. You don't know an invisible for is there, and can't or shouldnt react to it. If you make the DC 20 spot check mentioned above, or somehow otherwised recognized that there is an invisible around, you are aware. If you know the exact 5' square the foe is in, you have pinpointed them. If you can see invisible people, you are unaffected.
Pinpointing is the thing that is most mentioned in the rules. You can pinpoint a foe with a spot or listen check, if you roll high enough (as outlined in the invisibility rules). You can also pinpoint a foe with Scent, BlindSENSE, Tremorsense, and the like, according to their respective rules.
If you pinpoint a foe, you know their 5' square. You can always attack the right square, but the foe has full concealment (50% miss chance, no precision damage). If conditions change, you might need to pinpoint your for again (another check, another move action with Scent). You still can't target them with targetted spells (like Charm Person) but you could still hit them with AoEs like Fireball with no problem. Ranged Touches (and Melee Touches) are still possible, but as attacks, they are still affected by total concealment.
So yea, when running a monster, you have to ask yourself, how aware is my monster. An unaware monster shouldn't react at all. An aware monster might investigate, flee, find friends, cast spells like See Invisible, swing blindly (I use dice for this), or the like. A foe who pinpoints you needs to make a tactical decision about whether its easier to attack you with full concealment or do something else. A foe who is unaffected (like one with BlindSIGHT or See Invisible) would react normally to someone.
Not too hard.
Ok, now into the meat and potatoes. There are really 4 states of being with invisibility. There is completely unaware, aware, pinpointed, and unaffected. Unaware is as it sounds. You don't know an invisible for is there, and can't or shouldnt react to it. If you make the DC 20 spot check mentioned above, or somehow otherwised recognized that there is an invisible around, you are aware. If you know the exact 5' square the foe is in, you have pinpointed them. If you can see invisible people, you are unaffected.
Pinpointing is the thing that is most mentioned in the rules. You can pinpoint a foe with a spot or listen check, if you roll high enough (as outlined in the invisibility rules). You can also pinpoint a foe with Scent, BlindSENSE, Tremorsense, and the like, according to their respective rules.
If you pinpoint a foe, you know their 5' square. You can always attack the right square, but the foe has full concealment (50% miss chance, no precision damage). If conditions change, you might need to pinpoint your for again (another check, another move action with Scent). You still can't target them with targetted spells (like Charm Person) but you could still hit them with AoEs like Fireball with no problem. Ranged Touches (and Melee Touches) are still possible, but as attacks, they are still affected by total concealment.
So yea, when running a monster, you have to ask yourself, how aware is my monster. An unaware monster shouldn't react at all. An aware monster might investigate, flee, find friends, cast spells like See Invisible, swing blindly (I use dice for this), or the like. A foe who pinpoints you needs to make a tactical decision about whether its easier to attack you with full concealment or do something else. A foe who is unaffected (like one with BlindSIGHT or See Invisible) would react normally to someone.
Not too hard.
No.
The invisible NPC still has total concealment to the other thus no AoO is possible.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Say your PC is fighting a monster, then does a "Poof-gone" maneuver, whether it's a one round invisibility as some classes or races might get, longer standard Invisibility or even Improved doesn't matter.
Unless the monster has the linear memory of a goldfish, he won't just forget that the PC was there. He'll try to guess where the character is. a successful Spot check (DC20 by the book) will tell them which square the PC is in, though they still have a 50/50 miss chance. The same thing for a Listen check.
If they fail these they'll probably attack at random. I assign a base 50% chance they'll swing at the square the PC was just in, but that's strictly a house rule. After that they'll pick at random and take their shot. And even if they guess right, the 50/50 miss chance still applies.
If, on the other hand, the PC isn't vanishing while in combat, things work out very differently. You want to sneak up on that person/thing over there? Most of the time they make their Spot checks at -5 for being distracted, and the DC is still 20 to notice that there's an invisible creature in the area. Now I know a lot of people who treat Invisibility as a +20 to the Hide check, and that's a reasonable house rule. As written though, a good stealth type should avoid use of the spell since it may actually make them easier to Spot.
(We have a Whisper Gnome Rogue in our party (NPC), and his Hide check was +23 at 8th level. That means his casual/average Hide check is 33. Adding Invisibility on top of that, per RAW, actually makes him easier to spot. )
Hey, if I can make fun of the 4e rules, I can make fun of the 3.* rules as well. I endeavor to be an equal opportunity annoyer.
Unless the monster has the linear memory of a goldfish, he won't just forget that the PC was there. He'll try to guess where the character is. a successful Spot check (DC20 by the book) will tell them which square the PC is in, though they still have a 50/50 miss chance. The same thing for a Listen check.
If they fail these they'll probably attack at random. I assign a base 50% chance they'll swing at the square the PC was just in, but that's strictly a house rule. After that they'll pick at random and take their shot. And even if they guess right, the 50/50 miss chance still applies.
If, on the other hand, the PC isn't vanishing while in combat, things work out very differently. You want to sneak up on that person/thing over there? Most of the time they make their Spot checks at -5 for being distracted, and the DC is still 20 to notice that there's an invisible creature in the area. Now I know a lot of people who treat Invisibility as a +20 to the Hide check, and that's a reasonable house rule. As written though, a good stealth type should avoid use of the spell since it may actually make them easier to Spot.
(We have a Whisper Gnome Rogue in our party (NPC), and his Hide check was +23 at 8th level. That means his casual/average Hide check is 33. Adding Invisibility on top of that, per RAW, actually makes him easier to spot. )
Hey, if I can make fun of the 4e rules, I can make fun of the 3.* rules as well. I endeavor to be an equal opportunity annoyer.
Wyvernhand
First Post
This is NOT correct.
SRD said:
A creature can gain AWARENESS of an invisible foe with a DC 20 spot check, but to actually locate the creature's 5' square (pinpoint), the spotter must beat the invisible foes hide check by 20. Same thing with listen
SRD said:
Again, you can gain awareness fairly easily, assuming you have a decent bonus, but to actually locate the 5' square your foe occupies is MUCH more difficult.
Pinpointing is the game term for locating the 5' square a hiding or invisible creature is in. If your method of locating them doesn't include the word "pinpointing" or explicitly "knowing the 5' square the foe occupies", then you don't know where they are.
Keep in mind that even if you pinpoint a foe, they still have full concealment, benefitting from a 50% miss chance.
EDIT:
Also, from the description of the Hide skill
SRD said:
This +20 corresponds to the +20 to pinpoint in the description of invisibility.
Last edited:
Greenfield
Adventurer
Thanks for the correction. I don't know where my head was at.
kitcik
Adventurer
Jackinthegreen
Explorer
Minor note, using the Ninja's ability to become invisible means you're invisible for the full round even if you attack. It does not reference the Invisibility spell.
Also, taking the Enduring Ki feat allows it to function for an extra round.
As far as the BAB question goes, those who routinely allow or encourage multiclassing tend to follow Fractal/Partial BAB. There are many great character concepts that require multiclassing, and losing out on BAB because the game derped can really ruin those possibilities. Also, see Save My Game: Basic Attack Bonuses for an official discussion.
One question that usually helps introduce others to fractional BAB is: Why is BAB penalized sometimes when going into prestige classes? If it's a 1/2 or 3/4 then there's the very real chance of the character losing out on at least one point of it, and maybe even more if there are multiple PrCs. It seems odd at best that characters can get shafted on that.
Also, taking the Enduring Ki feat allows it to function for an extra round.
As far as the BAB question goes, those who routinely allow or encourage multiclassing tend to follow Fractal/Partial BAB. There are many great character concepts that require multiclassing, and losing out on BAB because the game derped can really ruin those possibilities. Also, see Save My Game: Basic Attack Bonuses for an official discussion.
One question that usually helps introduce others to fractional BAB is: Why is BAB penalized sometimes when going into prestige classes? If it's a 1/2 or 3/4 then there's the very real chance of the character losing out on at least one point of it, and maybe even more if there are multiple PrCs. It seems odd at best that characters can get shafted on that.
Last edited:
Jimlock
Adventurer
One change in the rules that usually goes unnoticed is that those spot DCs to notice/pinpoint etc. are now added to the Hide Check of the Invisible character.
RC p76:
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