D&D 5E Basic already surprising us.

[Ruin Explorer]

You're both implying some heavy stuff.

You're entirely missing the point of my post. I'm not talking about combat - others are, I'm not. We do know about non-combat, pretty well. Fighters are needlessly crap at it (given they are no more amazing than Wizards etc. IN combat).

So all your "but Fighters are okay in combat!" stuff is beside the point, at best, for my post.

 

[DEFCON 1]

As a DM I'd rule you get the background skills, and then have to pick two different skills from the cleric list, since you have available options you haven't taken yet to choose from within that list.

But...I also allow complete customization of backgrounds, so it would never come up.

Pretty much this.

I also intend on having my players select Background before Class (seeing as how their Backgrounds are what they were doing before they became adventurers), which means they'd get their two Background skills first... and then could select their remaining skills from their longer Class list and avoid doubling up.

But then again, as you say, players can just work with the DM to come up with any Backgrounds they want anyway, so really the entire concern is moot.

 

[sidonunspa]

A fighter should be able to outrun just about anything, and when they jump, the main limit should be their sight, not their legs.

you want more Hercules less Indigo Montoya

you want legendary godling at 20th.... I think you may want to create your own feat chain....

the last thing I want is my 20th level duelist to be the equivalent of a half-god

 

[Mort]

you want more Hercules less Indigo Montoya

you want legendary godling at 20th.... I think you may want to create your own feat chain....

the last thing I want is my 20th level duelist to be the equivalent of a half-god

The problem with this assessment is that by 20th level (and frankly well before) the casters are essentially superhumans. I prefer my players to be playing the same game. I just don't see anything wrong with giving fighters at least some mythic abilities as they rise in level, but even those that were present in playtest have been removed (ability to stay up when taken down to 0) or so severely nerfed as to be unrecognizable (indomitable used to be something spellcasters might worry about, now, not so much).

 

[Emerikol]

What's particularly sad is that none of this would require anything that people claim was "wrong" with 4E Fighters. No "disassociated mechanics"/CaGI or the like, just rules that actually make a Fighter a force to be reckoned with, rather than a class where entire class abilities are easily replaced by low-end magic items.

I intend no offense but you guys just want a different game than I want. I know you are going to shout at me about fairness but honestly I'm the guy playing a fighter or a rogue if I'm playing and I don't want what you want. Let's hope the DMG provides some methods for adjusting the game in your direction. I have some things I wanted adjusted too so I'm hoping.

For my own tastes, I don't want a non-magic using character to be doing things that exceed even the cinematic bounds of my believability. Let's use jump as an example. The distance jumped using athletics etc... hopefully for me equates out to something at least acceptable at a glance. I don't care if a limited resource spell allows you to jump the length of a football field. I'm assuming that magic is augmenting human ability in that case. In the case of a fighter in armor, I am not imagining any magic so I at least want to buy it as something not completely unbelievable.

When it comes to out of combat utility I see no way to balance the fighter and the wizard. Either the wizard is boring as all get out or the fighter is over the top wuxia. And yes I use wuxia for anything that exceeds that cinematic reality I mentioned above.

My only guess is that we need to play different games or the same game with different settings. Either way we are not going to be happy at the same table for sure.


P.S. I'm talking as much about the person you quoted as you [MENTION=16326]Ruin[/MENTION]Explorer

 

[Tush Hog]

Personally, I think Remarkable Athlete is pretty awesome.

It covers an enormous amount of ground. Seriously, getting half your proficiency at least to all physical checks is pretty great - at least in the games I run.

Lots of stuck doors, weather based Con checks, forced marches, etc...

The fighter will rock.

 

[YourSwordIsMine]

I intend no offense but you guys just want a different game than I want. I know you are going to shout at me about fairness but honestly I'm the guy playing a fighter or a rogue if I'm playing and I don't want what you want. Let's hope the DMG provides some methods for adjusting the game in your direction. I have some things I wanted adjusted too so I'm hoping.

For my own tastes, I don't want a non-magic using character to be doing things that exceed even the cinematic bounds of my believability. Let's use jump as an example. The distance jumped using athletics etc... hopefully for me equates out to something at least acceptable at a glance. I don't care if a limited resource spell allows you to jump the length of a football field. I'm assuming that magic is augmenting human ability in that case. In the case of a fighter in armor, I am not imagining any magic so I at least want to buy it as something not completely unbelievable.

When it comes to out of combat utility I see no way to balance the fighter and the wizard. Either the wizard is boring as all get out or the fighter is over the top wuxia. And yes I use wuxia for anything that exceeds that cinematic reality I mentioned above.

My only guess is that we need to play different games or the same game with different settings. Either way we are not going to be happy at the same table for sure.


P.S. I'm talking as much about the person you quoted as you [MENTION=16326]Ruin[/MENTION]Explorer

Quote for Truth.

I want to play D&D, not Exalted...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

you want more Hercules less Indigo Montoya

you want legendary godling at 20th.... I think you may want to create your own feat chain....

the last thing I want is my 20th level duelist to be the equivalent of a half-god

Then surely the Wizard should be less Merlin, and more Miracle Max? Because right now the situation is:

20th level Fighter = Someone who is really good at fighting but a looooooooong way short of people like Lu Bu, Hercules, and so on.

20th level Wizard = Better at magic than Merlin, Sparrowhawk and Gandalf put together (and the first and third pretty much literally demi-gods).

So yes to Fighter = Inigo Montoya but only if the Wizard is Miracle Max.

The fighter will rock.

Fighters don't get it, only Champions.

 

[Umbran]

I want to play D&D, not Exalted...

Yeah, we've seen this kind of argument before, and it doesn't generally end well.

If we are going to start down the "that's not D&D!" line, we can cut to the chase, and I can ban a few people and close the thread now.

 

[Tush Hog]

Fighters don't get it, only Champions.

Since this is the only subclass we have access to - it encompasses all fighters in my groups