Level Up (A5E) Basic Maneuver Saving Throw Question

[nyarly23]

Basic maneuvers (shove, grapple, etc) only require a saving throw from the target.

This tells me a creature that is (normally) disadvantaged in some way (frightened, poisoned, restrained, etc) can attempt a basic maneuver just as easily as if they weren't suffering from such a condition, since they're not actually making a roll.

Other maneuvers and abilities that do similar things require attack rolls to initiate, so any disadvantages would apply to those rolls.

I understand the streamlining behind it, (and the doing away with opposed ability checks), but this seems a little... counter-intuitive to me.

Has anyone encountered such situations in play, and what were your observations?

 

[lichmaster]

I've always been a bit bugged by the asymmetry introduced by having both "save" mechanics and "hit" mechanics. I don't really like "save" mechanics, particularly when they are save or nothing. It's true that to some extent it's just a p.o.v. flipping where instead of one character rolling offensively vs a fixed target defense, there's a fixed offense vs a rolled defense. However, crits are possible only with "hit" mechanics, and, as you just highlighted, being affected by a condition has a different impact on the two mechanics

I have two other "observations": one is that basic combat maneuvers may be so simple that you're not really affected by stuff like being poisoned etc (don't really like this idea, but it's just a way to make do with RAW).
The second (given my dislike for the above mentioned asymmetry) would be that being affected by those conditions would allow the opponent to roll their save with advantage (instead of the poisoned attacker rolling with disadvantage). This is definitely a houserule, but it's something I may consider implementing

 

[Morrus]

I suppose you could say the same about spells.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I suppose you could say the same about spells.

i think spells are a little easier to rationalize in this regard since there's typically an inherent layer of disconnect perceived between the caster and the spell, whereas basic maneuvers are VERY physical.

 

[lichmaster]

I suppose you could say the same about spells.

Definitely so. Being hidden allows you to cast a firebolt with advantage (a "hit" type spell), but has no effect on searing flame (a "save" type spell). Same for being blessed.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Great observation @nyarly23!

I'm implementing the houserule fix for both basic manuevers and spells.

EDIT: If one is mix and matching 5e with Level Up and takes the above houserule into effect, they might want to twerk the Arcane Tricker's 9th level ability.

 

[lichmaster]

I think in general WOIN handles these aspects of the game much better (I really hope that with today's closure of the starter set pack we'll see a ... kickstart and resurgence of WOIN).
There is only a mechanic, which is of "hit" type regardless of the attack or spell. Conditions are not "saved" against, and most often they are applied in any case (no wasted resources), but can be shaken off with a separate, delayed roll. No asymmetry, no shenanigans. The distinction though is that there are different defenses.

 

[Anonymous3]

I know this is an old post but it is interesting.
It terms of "realism", I agree that these mechanics seem at odds with each other.
However, I like the idea that once a character has a condition/debuff they need rethink what is best instead of just going to whatever they are really strong at.

Basic maneuvers are another option when you have a bad condition, say poisoned, that makes using them that more effective for your team than straight attacks. Just like spells with saving throws.

Glad I came across this post - I am excited that I have more options now. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Distracted DM]

Basic maneuvers are another option when you have a bad condition, say poisoned, that makes using that them more effective for your team than straight attacks. Just like spells with saving throws.

Yeah I like that it might help players to reconsider their most effective actions.