UngeheuerLich
Legend
I don't understand? This would be?I think that's the problem. For some the players of fighters should have as much narrative control as they could envision a star athlete to have.
I don't understand? This would be?I think that's the problem. For some the players of fighters should have as much narrative control as they could envision a star athlete to have.
It’s also misrepresenting my position. When I said that I cast Bless and I got nothing else to do, I didn’t mean I just sit back, but rather that I have nothing interesting or that further supports my team to do. Plinking away with Sacred Flame or swinging a weapon is not my idea of playing a ‘Support’ character you know? It’s just going through the motion until the fight’s over or someone needs an emergency heal.
I don't think so. I have played Rogues with medium armor, but they were always multiclassed and they are not primarily melee characters. I do use Rogues in melee sometimes, but I would not call any I have ever played melee builds. They are usually either ranged builds or builds that do some of both melee and ranged.Wasn't it ECMO3 who previously suggested tanking with a rogue? By spending feats on medium armor and shields? And implied this was the most efficient type of Rogue his group had come up with?? Somehow?
But it is even better and more fun for the table to limit it to once per short rest .... if you chose that fighting style and never get to use it at all if you don't. That keeps the fighter from overshadowing other characters in combat.
You truly believe that imposing disadvantage to hit other party members on one or two creatures is going to "overshadow" the other characters? More than say, a Fireball or Hypnotic pattern would?
Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern are not melee attacks. It will completely overshadow other characters in melee, especially when combined with extra attack, better weapons and the extra ASIs a fighter gets.
How? By being hit more than the other melee characters?
I think perhaps you should refresh yourself on the discussion we're actually having. It is not specifically about melee. We are talking about the Fighter being able to impose disadvantage to hit opponents other than themselves if they land a blow. That is a control and support ability as Hypnotic Pattern is.Because that is not melee! Hypnotic pattern and fireball are not melee attacks. This is like saying a Longbow is a better melee weapon than a scimitar. It isn't because a longbow is not a melee weapon, you don't make melee attacks with it, and if you have a longbow in your hand you won't dominate melee with it.
Suggesting the Wizard can dominate melee with fireball is like saying the PAM fighter can dominate spellcasting with his Glaive
Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball are spells, a wizard casting them might dominate combat with them (but I would argue they are not actually good spells for that either), but they won't dominate melee with those spells.
I'm fairly sure that Clerics aren't going to completely embarrass themselves, what with Divine Strike, and Spirit Guardians or a celestial fighting next to them.The discussion is about who is better in melee. A high-strength cleric with a good heavy armor and martial weapon subclass can be close to a base no subclass fighter in melee in tier 1 and maybe early tier 2, but he is going to be outrun by quite a bit later in tier 2 and that gap will get wider still in tier 3 and beyond.
Melee-oriented Bards get as many attacks as Fighters do for most of their usual career. Even if the campaign continues much beyond 11th level they are a full caster with whatever spells they have plundered from the Paladin or other lists.I am not sure a Bard can ever really match up with a fighter in melee at all, although to be fair I don't play a lot of them .... mostly because they suck.
Sure they have spells, but most of their spells are not melee oriented and most actually reduce your melee damage because they take a full action to cast. There are some are good melee bonus action spells - sanctuary and shield of faith come to mind, but their power is limited and if you are casting sanctuary every turn after you make your melee attack you are going to run out of spell slots quickly.
How would the Fighter being able to focus enemy attacks more on themselves and less on the other characters change this for the worse?I was replying to someone and his point was that clerics don't have enough to do enough in combat, that they don't have enough support options and their attacks are irrelevant so there is nothing to do. I was pointing out that if you make the fighter more powerful the cleric will be even more irrelevant by comparison.
Keeping the fighter better but in the same ballpark makes the other characters weapon attacks and to a degree cantrips more relevant. Still not as good, but meaningful. If your fighter is doing 70DPR, who cares if your cleric can tack on 8 more with his mace. If your fighter is doing 20DPR that boost matters.
Let's examine that, IMO one would need to have such a complex and detailed model of the world and each encounter and be able to sufficiently describe all the details that model uses to the players that play would bog down to a standstill - if one were to want non-narrative control to function similarly to a star athele.I think that's the problem. For some the players of fighters should have as much narrative control as they could envision a star athlete to have.
I think perhaps you should refresh yourself on the discussion we're actually having. It is not specifically about melee. We are talking about the Fighter being able to impose disadvantage to hit opponents other than themselves if they land a blow. That is a control and support ability as Hypnotic Pattern is.
I'm fairly sure that Clerics aren't going to completely embarrass themselves, what with Divine Strike, and Spirit Guardians or a celestial fighting next to them.
Melee-oriented Bards get as many attacks as Fighters do for most of their usual career. Even if the campaign continues much beyond 11th level they are a full caster with whatever spells they have plundered from the Paladin or other lists.
Fighters can already do that:How would the Fighter being able to focus enemy attacks more on themselves and less on the other characters change this for the worse?
Nods, number 2 has the wow factor which is missing from modelling the guy from the gym.I'd like to see fighters have a mix of at-will abilities and limited-use abilities. I'd rather have limited-use abilities that are reliable and powerful than at-will abilities that require particular rolls or circumstances and/or don't have much impact.
That is, if given the choice between
I'll take option 2 every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
- Once per round, push an opponent 5 ft in any direction.
- Once per combat (or maybe once per day), slam an opponent so hard they go flying 30 ft away and deal some amount of damage to everyone they hit on the way.
I think perhaps the PDK and Cavalier are so far low end they ought to collapse into the core class... it really just makes the fighter more flexible not really more powerful, isn't that what people perhaps incorrectly claim for the caster? that their flexibility and ridiculous amounts of control does not make them more powerful.If you really want to do this why aren't you playing a Cavalier? And if we give this to all fighters, don't you think that severely infringes on a cavalier which is already on the low end of fighter
I am having fun playing my cavalier multiclass right now. Admittedly I have never played a PDK, but a Cavalier has exactly what people are saying is needed in a fighter.I think perhaps the PDK and Cavalier are so far low end they ought to collapse into the core class... it really just makes the fighter more flexible not really more powerful, isn't that what people perhaps incorrectly claim for the caster? that their flexibility and ridiculous amounts of control does not make them more powerful.
Cool anecdote and It may reach the capability of a level 1 -> 4e defender fighter by 18th level maybe with some limits (although the 4e will likely eventually have multi-marking abilities like battle shouts and possibly self generating temp hit points and ways to do maneuvers like battlemasters do and so on in addition...AND that does not include abilities from Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.I am having fun playing my cavalier multiclass right now. Admittedly I have never played a PDK, but a Cavalier has exactly what people are saying is needed in a fighter.
Well as I said I am having fund and I generally didn't in 4E .... so take that for what it is worth.Cool anecdote and It may reach the capability of a level 1 -> 4e defender fighter by 18th level maybe with some limits (although the 4e will likely eventually have multi-marking abilities like battle shouts and possibly self generating temp hit points and ways to do maneuvers like battlemasters do and so on in addition...AND that does not include abilities from Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies.