D&D 5E Battlemaster and Superiority Dice are causing martials to suffer.

[CreamCloud0]

In my opinion, the absolutely fundamental design problem in D&D (3.5, 3.0, 5.0) is that the designers put so much value on abilities having no restrictions on their use.

I've illustrated this in another thread by pointing out how the rogue has no limit to the number of locks they can pick, but that since you are never actually going to ever come close to being able to capitalise on this lack of a resource cost there is no real benefit to being able to do it any number of times aside from a few edge cases.

Consider: A rogue who can pick only five locks per day is theoretically weaker than a rogue with the exact same stats, but who can pick an infinite amount of locks per day without restrictions.

My conclusion is that either all abilities should have resources associated with them, or no abilities should have (including spells). This would get rid of all the problems with the five minute week day.

i agree with the general statement but less so the conclusion, i think they just need to scale down how much they value they put on unlimited use abilities

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

i agree with the general statement but less so the conclusion, i think they just need to scale down how much they value they put on unlimited use abilities

True. I think Paizo has done a good job with PF2, understanding that there's limited utility in abilities being spammable and so allowing them to be more powerful.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It would be nice if things were more consistent.

I'd rather have fewer, more broad rules for combat maneuvers that anyone can attempt, but certain classes excel at them more than others.

I've encountered other game systems like this: the options are there for everyone to use, but specific "classes" grant extra thematic benefits or exceptions.

Eg: Every PC can spend an Action to use Strength (Athletics) to impose the Prone condition on an enemy, but the Fighter can do that as part of a melee or ranged attack, or the Monk can use Acrobatics instead. Stuff like that.

oh definitely, i think it would be much better if the manoeuvre die added directly to the likelyhood of success on the manoeuvres as the default design, like how in grappling strike the die is added to your strength check, and then 'untrained' classes could use the same manoeuvres but with smaller die, like, the battlemaster is using a d12, a standard fighter has a d10, the rogue a d8, cleric d6, the wizard d4.

 

[SkidAce]

oh definitely, i think it would be much better if the manoeuvre die added directly to the likelyhood of success on the manoeuvres as the default design, like how in grappling strike the die is added to your strength check, and then 'untrained' classes could use the same manoeuvres but with smaller die, like, the battlemaster is using a d12, a standard fighter has a d10, the rogue a d8, cleric d6, the wizard d4.

I wonder how much letting the current Battle Master add what they rolled on the superiority dice to their chance of success would affect things?

 

[Stormonu]

oh definitely, i think it would be much better if the manoeuvre die added directly to the likelyhood of success on the manoeuvres as the default design, like how in grappling strike the die is added to your strength check, and then 'untrained' classes could use the same manoeuvres but with smaller die, like, the battlemaster is using a d12, a standard fighter has a d10, the rogue a d8, cleric d6, the wizard d4.

I think adding a die on top of the chance for the success of the maneuver is a slippery slope. Akin to granting specialist Wizards a die bonus to the difficulty of saving throws/attacks for spells in their particular specialty (i.e., giving Illusionists a +dX bonus when casting illusions).

I'd be more favorable to giving a pool of maneuvers to characters they can use as bonus/free actions rather than a bonus to chance of success, akin to "spells prepared". Don't deny characters the ability to do a maneuver, but restrict how easily they activate them. A wizard might only have only one "free" maneuver (say, "dazzle" to blind an enemy), while the fighter might have six at their disposal that they can add on to their regular attacks (giving them something interesting to do with their bonus actions or reactions).

 

[CreamCloud0]

I think adding a die on top of the chance for the success of the maneuver is a slippery slope. Akin to granting specialist Wizards a die bonus to the difficulty of saving throws/attacks for spells in their particular specialty (i.e., giving Illusionists a +dX bonus when casting illusions).

I'd be more favorable to giving a pool of maneuvers to characters they can use as bonus/free actions rather than a bonus to chance of success, akin to "spells prepared". Don't deny characters the ability to do a maneuver, but restrict how easily they activate them. A wizard might only have only one "free" maneuver (say, "dazzle" to blind an enemy), while the fighter might have six at their disposal that they can add on to their regular attacks (giving them something interesting to do with their bonus actions or reactions).

personally i'm not convinced that martials taken as a general whole are so well off that an extra infusion of capability to any one of them is going to break things, i don't think they get enough juice to squeeze outside of combat so making them notably more powerful in it is my go to.

also, i'm reminded of the crab-bucket thread, all the martials need to be raised up IMO rather than dragging one who might rise above back down.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm not sure I'd ever have a player look at the options 1) Attack, multiple times for most of the campaign and 2) try to goad the opponent into hitting you instead of your friends and do nothing else, and then choose number 2 on purpose except in some weird edge case.

Wrapping extra effects into the things the martials already want to do because they're mechanically incentivized to do so (mostly taking the Attack action) means that you actually see these narrative adjusting actions in play instead of them being some theoretical "well, you COULD use your action to..."

Which is to say that I agree with the thread's premise: the existence of the Battlemaster drags other martials down. All martials should be able to goad, trip, disarm, and it shouldn't cost some specialized resource to do it, and it shouldn't feel like you're handicapping yourself to do something other than "I walk forward and swing twice."

While I agree, I would point out that the game also benefits from having an expert in such things that is better at it than other martials. So, while I agree that the BM creates meta issues that negatively impact gameplay, I think it’s important to have in the game.

I would just say that any successful attack that succeeds by 5 or more, or is a crit, can do a manuver as part of the attack. If an attack against you fails by 5 or more, or is a nat 1, you can do a reaction maneuver (mostly a riposte obviously).

The BM can do manuevers on any successful attack, and add extra damage if they spend a die when doing so, because the die represents extra effort to execute the move perfectly or with particular ferocity, etc.

This way, the BM exists as the expert in tactical combat, but your barbarian can goad and trip and such without sacrificing damage.

 

[Baron Opal II]

It would be nice if things were more consistent.

I'd rather have fewer, more broad rules for combat maneuvers that anyone can attempt, but certain classes excel at them more than others.

I've encountered other game systems like this: the options are there for everyone to use, but specific "classes" grant extra thematic benefits or exceptions.

Eg: Every PC can spend an Action to use Strength (Athletics) to impose the Prone condition on an enemy, but the Fighter can do that as part of a melee or ranged attack, or the Monk can use Acrobatics instead. Stuff like that.

I'd did something like that. Everyone can trip, for example. If you hit you force someone to make a check to remain standing. A fighter trained in tripping others forces the trip check, does minimum damage, and can sacrifice a portion of their attack bonus as a penalty to the trip save.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd did something like that. Everyone can trip, for example. If you hit you force someone to make a check to remain standing. A fighter trained in tripping others forces the trip check, does minimum damage, and can sacrifice a portion of their attack bonus as a penalty to the trip save.

I wonder, what about tying the shoots to do these things in addition to damage to the Weapon Mastery feature? So you can do them with a weapon in which you have mastery, but not when using other weapons?

So if you have dagger and short sword, you can trip and deal damage on a successful attack while wielding either weapon. If you pick up a scimitar, you have to do one or the other.

Another way to go is to require declaring a special attack when you attack, and take a small penalty to attack because it’s harder to do both than to do just one.

 

[Minigiant]

I wonder, what about tying the shoots to do these things in addition to damage to the Weapon Mastery feature? So you can do them with a weapon in which you have mastery, but not when using other weapons?

So if you have dagger and short sword, you can trip and deal damage on a successful attack while wielding either weapon. If you pick up a scimitar, you have to do one or the other.

Another way to go is to require declaring a special attack when you attack, and take a small penalty to attack because it’s harder to do both than to do just one.

The first is how if do it if I redid Weapon Properties and Masteries.

Anyone can use their attack to trip.
Anyone wielding a Reach weapon adds 5th to their reach.

Mastering a weapon with Pommel lets you trip and deal damage on a successful attack.

A Champion (its own class) has more Weapon Masteries and can have a large roster of weapon options. At level 5, a champion might have 4 weapon masteries and 2 fighting styles.

A Battlemaster (its own class) can get Mastery weapons additional Masteries and Properties. At level 5, a Battlemaster might have 2 weapon masteries and 1 fighting styles but their 2 mastered weapon have access to 1 extra Mastery each via Maneuvers.